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| Posted: 14 Nov 2008 17:39 |
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America's Godly Heritage 5 - Removal of prayer from the school and the rise of Crime
It was this question that led Barton to uncover the statistical proof that the removal of prayer did indeed take its toll on America. Below are just a few of the charts featured in Bartons report, wit... more >>
It was this question that led Barton to uncover the statistical proof that the removal of prayer did indeed take its toll on America. Below are just a few of the charts featured in Bartons report, with a brief explanation of each:
Figure 1: The SAT (Scholastic Aptitude Test) is an academic test that measures the developed verbal and math reasoning of a student exiting from high school or some similar type of learning facility. The results of these tests are commonly used by colleges and universities to indicate the strength of a student's academic preparation and his potential for success on the college level.
Figure 1 shows how drastically the actual knowledge of high school students began to drop at an accelerating rate after 1962. Barton notes in his report that the upturn in SAT scores since 1981 is due to the increase in private Christian educational facilities which began to flourish at that time. Statistics have proven that students from private Christian schools showed higher academic achievement and higher test scores.
Figure 2: This graph shows the increase in s^exual activity in unmarried teen-age girls after the 1962 Supreme Court decision. It is evident from the figures provided that in the years previous to the removal of prayer the rates remained stable and relatively unchanged. In the post- prayer years the numbers immediately began to soar. The sudden increase on the graph appears as if a great restraining force had suddenly been removed.
Figure 3: Unwed women 15-19 years of age showed a phenomenal increase in the rate of pregnancies after the School Prayer decision. Note that the figure jumps drastically after the Supreme Court's Roe vs. Wade decision which made abortion legal in the U.S. The United States now has the highest incidence of teen-age motherhood in any Western country.
Figure 4: For the 15-19 and 20-24 age group, the rates of youth suicide remained relatively unchanged during the years from 1946 to the School Prayer decision in 1962. But in the years since, suicides among the same group have increased 253 percent, or an average of 10.5 percent per year.
Figure 5: Stability in the family has also been affected since the 1962 decision. Divorce, single parent families, couples living together but not married, and adultery are areas of family breakdown which have experienced radical growth in recent years. In the graph above, the increase in single parent families (households with only a mother and children) are detailed. Note the dotted line at the bottom, which shows the rate of growth prior to the 1962 decision.
Figure 6: Crime, productivity, and national morality had been on a fairly stable level prior to the 1962 decision, but that is no longer the case. It is obvious that such a quantity of students praying for their nation had a very positive effect on the course that this nation had taken. The rate of violent crime, as shown above, has risen over 330 percent.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 14 Nov 2008 18:52 |
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Major league crap. One of your major problems Tim is that you actually believe this nonsense. What part do rap music and Marilyn Manson play?
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| Posted: 14 Nov 2008 22:16 |
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Nobody removed prayer from schools in the first place, so I didn't watch the obviously misinformed video. Sorry.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 15 Nov 2008 00:26 Last Edited By: Tim |
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That's the reason you don't know anything from a conservative or Christian perspective. You only watch atheistic videos. I guess you are afraid you might learn something you don't want to know.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 15 Nov 2008 14:16 |
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Let me repeat this because it seems that you've either missed it or ignored it.
Prayer was not removed from school.
Changing perspectives does not change that fact.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 15 Nov 2008 18:10 |
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Quote:
Prayer was not removed from school.
Huh? What? You're joking right?
Take a look at this.
From http://www.schoolprayerinamerica.info/index.html:
Quote:
As the 20th Century began many classrooms started each day with the pledge of allegiance, a prayer and a reading from the Bible. State run schools continued to teach moral values using the McGuffey reader with its Bible verses. America had one of the best school systems in the world. The first crack in the moral school system occurred, in 1925 when the newly formed ACLU paid a teacher in Tennessee to teach Evolution. Biblical creation had been taught through out the land, and teaching evolution was against the Tennessee state law. While the ACLU lost the case, it set in motion a re-evaluation of teaching science. Within four decades the laws were reversed so that now teaching Creation is outlawed and teaching Evolution is mandatory.
The ACLU then started using the courts to change school policy. In 1948 the Supreme court used the "Separation of Church and State" argument to outlaw a time for school prayer. In 1962 the Supreme Court again declared that prayer in school was unconstitutional. In 1963 the Warren Court stopped schools from allowing Bible reading in classes. In 1980 the Supreme Court declared that posting the Ten Commandments in a school classroom violated the Constitution of the United States.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 15 Nov 2008 21:50 |
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Your quote doesn't quite give the full story.
Only mandatory prayer was removed.
As it should have been.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 17 Nov 2008 16:33 |
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Whatever your opinion the fact is that over the years unprecedented violence has became the norm in schools, and for all the faults you would put at the feet of previous generations you can't find a time back when school prayer was the norm that school shootings were also the norm.
Nobody 50 years ago would have ever thought kids at a school would bring to school a gun to shoot their classmates. Now they might have brought their daddy's hunting rifle for show and tell, but that's about it. People didn't have to live in fear of each other back then. What happened if it wasn't because of rejecting God?
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 17 Nov 2008 21:56 |
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Let me show you how off your complaint is.
Cheez Whiz was first produced in 1951 and look what's happened since. Not only is the nation more violent than ever, we're fatter than ever too. Cheez Whiz is the devil's plaything.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 17 Nov 2008 22:50 |
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Yeah, that relates if anybody ever correlated cheez whiz to moral behavior. Obviously two very unrelated things. Don't be silly.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 17 Nov 2008 23:01 |
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It was to point out a lack of definite correlation or causation.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 18 Nov 2008 18:13 |
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It's like comparing a car to a snake crawling on the ground. No correlation in your example. Prayer and religion goes to the heart of man. The heart is where violence and sin in general begins.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 18 Nov 2008 22:14 |
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oy...
Removing mandatory prayer in schools has no causation for all the ills prescribed it.
End.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 19 Nov 2008 15:34 |
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Because you said so. I'm convinced. You ever consider you might have the wrong idea every once in a while, or do you always trust your gut feeling every single time? I'm just curious because I know I've been wrong in life from time to time, but apparently you know all pal. You don't even have to pay attention to anybody that might have different information than what you've accepted as fact.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 19 Nov 2008 15:39 |
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Quote:
You ever consider you might have the wrong idea every once in a while,
I make mistakes all the time. It's the only way people can learn anything.
I'm standing by my words here, as I've just reviewed our discussion and don't see error in it on my side. This has nothing to do with gut feelings and I certainly don't know all and it was never meant to be personal as I'm picking up from your post that you might feel it was. I'm not here to upset you or anyone else Tim-I'm sorry if I did inadvertantly.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 20 Nov 2008 16:32 |
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No way you didn't upset me. I don't always like it when you take such a hard nosed atheistic view, but it's cool.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 20 Nov 2008 19:26 |
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I don't always like it when you take such a hard nosed atheistic view,
'To deny our own nature is to deny the very thing that makes us human in the first place'.
What other view is an atheist supposed to take?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 21 Nov 2008 00:11 |
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You should take a view based on the evidence and regardless of what you think you don't necessarily have to be quite so rigid about it I guess. It's not like you have proof of your position. It's just something you favor. I think it takes as much faith to be an atheist as it does to be a Christian if not more so.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 21 Nov 2008 02:35 |
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Quote:
You should take a view based on the evidence
I did. Are you familiar with the term 'scapegoat'?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 21 Nov 2008 18:50 |
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Let me ask you this, can you deny the fact that crime has risen alongside the decay of morality after the time prayer was outlawed?
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 21 Nov 2008 21:19 |
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That can't be denied any more than when certain people blamed comics for what the kids were doing, violence and sex on TV and movies after that, video games after that, or the internet after that.
One thing they have in common besides being attempted scapegoats? No definitive proof of causation.
Can you show anything aside from happenstance or coincidence where removal of mandatory prayer caused anything negative tangibly at all?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 22 Nov 2008 16:44 |
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Let's put it to you this way. If you take a bunch of kids out of school completely before they graduate I can easily see drops in income for that generation. It's logical.
When you take the basic foundations of morality away from kids it's easy to see how each generation would gradually grow worse and worse. It's not coincidence it's simple logic.
By telling kids there is no God we came from apes. They act like apes. That's what they are, right? They don't have to answer to God, right? How do expect them to act? Each generation grows colder and colder under that kind of mentality.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 22 Nov 2008 22:36 |
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Quote:
If you take a bunch of kids out of school completely before they graduate I can easily see drops in income for that generation.
Why the entire generation and not just those kids specifically? Does not follow.
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When you take the basic foundations of morality
This is assuming prayer delivers anything resembling a foundation of morality to begin with and that religion is the only source of morality. Already clear I disagree with both right?
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By telling kids there is no God we came from apes.
Removing mandatory prayer from public schools doesn't tell anyone there is no God. That was and is the responsibility of the parents or their chosen place of worship to inform kids of faith based matters.
Nobody says we come from apes but you guys. You keep bringing up this strawman to refute evolution somehow, but Darwin never said this in the first place. It's an ancestor we have in common, not one turning into the other.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 23 Nov 2008 00:06 |
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This is assuming prayer delivers anything resembling a foundation of morality We go in circles on things like this because I think fundamentally you do not want to believe that God is real or makes any difference in a person's life. When a person has a specific prejudice it doesn't make any difference what facts you present. I think people look for facts that make their opinions valid and not look for opinions that are supported by facts.
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It's an ancestor we have in common, not one turning into the other. And what's the difference. Do you think we come from apes or not?
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 23 Nov 2008 13:24 |
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Quote:
you do not want to believe that God is real or makes any difference in a person's life.
It's not a matter of preference. I simply do not believe. I'm sure you feel the positives of such beliefs as much as I see the negatives. All of this, our personal beliefs and feelings and philosophy, has zero bearing on the actual truth of a subject.
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Do you think we come from apes or not?
Don't make me pester you with the evolution primer again. No, we absolutely do not come from apes. We share a common ancestor, which we both evolved from, according to Darwin.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 24 Nov 2008 16:11 |
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I simply do not believe. Philosophical time, what if God came down to earth did lots of miracles and then went back to heaven? Would you believe then?
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We share a common ancestor, So you are saying we are all from the same little one celled amoeba which eventually became a ape, and then from the ape we eventually became people? Is that right?
Well you can claim the monkeys are your kin, not me pal. I got enough bad relatives in my family tree. They might even swung from a tree or two but it was probably from the neck not the tail.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 24 Nov 2008 22:31 |
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Quote:
what if God came down to earth did lots of miracles and then went back to heaven? Would you believe then?
I'd have the same chance of believing God came down here and did miracles as you'd have believing Allah did the same. We'd probably need the same amount of proof.
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and then from the ape we eventually became people? Is that right?
NO
WE ARE NOT DESCENDED FROM APES.
Why do you keep pushing this nonsense?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 24 Nov 2008 23:15 |
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Look do apes have something to do with it or not?
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 24 Nov 2008 23:28 |
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Common ancestor.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 25 Nov 2008 16:47 |
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 Ok so we are supposed to be related to apes?
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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