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| Posted: 11 Dec 2008 17:43 Last Edited By: pakratmak |
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There's nothing that happens that surprises God.
He knew I'd be a nonbeliever, while knowing what it would take for me to be a believer, and is still gonna let me burn in a place He created? Is that the final analysis? I understand you're no theologian Tim-but you should understand something like this for your own gratification before I even asked it- I'm surprised this has either never crossed your mind, you'd forgotten questioning it or would lie about considering it. All wrong things to do, don't you think?
I'm gonna be kind and not tell you exactly what I think of any sort of 'creator' who would behave in such a fashion. You'll hopefully finally understand why I am again happy to be fortunate enough to not believe such a person even exists, and that more and more evidence arises against such an existence to my satisfaction on almost a daily basis.
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He did.
You say we have the Bible, and I have to point out we also have the Talmud, the Torah and the Quran, just to name a few others. Any omnipotent being would not purposely mislead or confuse people they love in any such manner.
You say you're here to help others understand that the Bible is true, and I have to point out that several things you've pointed out are not only innacurate but taking being under the spell of belief to be amenable to them in the first place. People like you mean well while you use questionable tactics and methods to do what you must consider your duty. I appreciate that you mean well, but when I see someone quote mining, obfuscating the actual truth, changing definitions on a whim or just reciting things they themselves obviously don't understand-it sends exactly the opposite message than what you guys are trying to convey.
You say creation proves God exists, and I will point out that God is not needed to explain it nor does the formation of this planet or the cosmos or life therein verify anything mystical. You can be comfortable with what by all appearances seems to be a shortcut through folklore if you like. Some of us know the answers are still waiting to be found and are willing to wait patiently for them.
My existence is proof that my mother got pregnant, probably through natural means. Nothing spectacular or mystical there.
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I can only be a witness to what I've seen in my life.
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I've seen major differences from people of the same family that followed God's plan for life and those that didn't.
I hate having to do this, I do. These are things that are near and dear to you and I honestly have no place in arguing them or trying to alter them or take them away from you. But I also feel compelled to be honest as well. Moral dilemma...
I will simply say this so that I might be conscionable in either case.
I believe you have been led to believe some things as factual that are ambiguous and circumstantial to begin with. Who can actually claim that their philosophy is more correct than the next persons? There are people who meant well and wanted to look out for your well being that led you to these conclusions and then there are the people who mislead you purposely for their own selfish gain. I'm very sure if you're the slightest bit honest you can think of cases of both. Take a minute and reflect on your various teachers and sources of instruction and inspiration, especially regarding matters of your faith. Now ask yourself if the people who meant well for you in this life and the next, could not also have been misled by others who were only looking out for themselves in a far reaching chain of deceit. It's an ugly accusation and a dreadful picture and I am terribly sorry for it, but that is what I honestly believe has happened, not just to you, but all good Christians, all good Jews, all good Islamists etc etc etc since we have had the ability to make analogies and share them with others. The original cave dwellers made up stories to explain how things were happening around them and other cave dwellers bought into it. Then some of the really smart ones found a way to make gains for themselves by telling the 'right' stories. It's been going on for far too long and there seems to be no end in sight.
Just to be clear here about what we keep winding up arguing about, time and again; When you tell me that you have something that fills you with joy and helps you live a good life and be a good person, that's really a wonderful thing. A wonderful thing I don't want to argue with, dispute or taint in any way for you. I want you to have that happiness. Life is simply too short and we're surrounded by misery and bad news and people who mean us harm always while we are fortunate to be here. I even do envy a little bit that you've found something like that for yourself, much like how you seem to be happily married while I can't see the need or purpose for marriage in the first place.
Where we keep hitting a rocky divide though is where I'm told by any of you, that:
>My way is the only way. Don't follow along and you'll pay for it.
>These stories sound impossible but that's what makes them true.
>Of course they don't make sense to you. You have to believe them first and then you'll see the truth. They're mysterious and profound.
>That's what it says, but that's not what they meant when they wrote it.
and on and on and on and on....
(Not just to you here Tim-believers in general)
You guys seem to think believing is a conscious effort, which it is not. You either believe or you don't by accepting evidence of the claim or not. It's not left up to a vote and can't be rationalized like that old dilly about 'It's safer to believe than not'. If any of you are actually using that as a rationale for calling yourselves a Christian or Jew or Muslim-you're no more of a believer than I am, you're actually a phony and a liar.
So, in matters of faith, we are either going to have to agree to disagree or we're gonna keep butting heads over it. Pure and simple.
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I hope one day you might believe yourself.
IF the Bible is really true and somehow, some day I actually come upon sufficient evidence to then be a believer- I'd still be damned. I've already forsaken Jesus and not accepted the holy spirit, which is absolutely the only thing that can't be forgiven by Jesus, if I understand the dogma correctly.
You are wasting your time in your efforts to make me a believer Tim. We do have better stuff to talk about. Thanks for the concoern though.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 12 Dec 2008 17:46 |
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while knowing what it would take for me to be a believer, and is still gonna let me burn in a place He created? And just what would it take. Maybe the answer is you would harden your heart toward God if you stood face to face with him. You might believe He existed, but you still might not accept Him as your Savior and Lord. God knows this too. Should He force atheists to stay in heaven with a God they hate?
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My existence is proof that my mother got pregnant, probably through natural means. Nothing spectacular or mystical there. An over simplification if I ever heard one.
Think about what is involved with your ability to see with your eyes, hear with your ears, processing all that data in your mind, etc. What are the chances you could do all of that by some cosmic accident?
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My way is the only way. Don't follow along and you'll pay for it. Would you rather I lie? It's not my way. I'm just following. And I don't personally hold it against you. I'm not angry with you that you don't believe. God is, but I'm not. Should I tell you that God is hunky Dorry with that when I don't believe it?
You make it sound like I go around asking people what they do in the bedroom, or what they believe before I'll do business with them or talk to them etc. It's not the case. I just can't justify hedging on my beliefs because it's not politically correct. On a personal level with other human beings I don't wish to anger anyone, but I can't run from what I believe to be true. To thine own self be true.
And as the Bible says, "Let God be true and every man a lier" .
Your argument that Christians change the Bible to suit them is silly. Read the Bible yourself and see what it says. Don't go on what other people say anyway. That's like believing only commentaries of political speeches without actually hearing the speech yourself.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 12 Dec 2008 17:49 |
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Oh, and the blasphemy thing Jesus talked about I believe is referring to the Pharisees who had Jesus right in front of their face and still rejected all the miracles and works the Holy Spirit had done.
I believe in a whomever will gospel.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 12 Dec 2008 19:35 |
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you would harden your heart toward God if you stood face to face with him.
How does one 'harden a heart'? If Mr all-knowing wants me to believe, he should know what it takes. Period. However, since we're here anyways, ask yourself if someone stood in front of you and said they were God-what would it take for that to be believable for you? Not that you have to share that here, but if you do, please don't make some automatic response about believing it right away without proof-that would be more foolish than the phrase 'harden your heart'.
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You might believe He existed, but you still might not accept Him as your Savior and Lord.
Maybe it's just how I'm reading it, but that's pretty dumb to even assume as a possibility.
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Should He force atheists to stay in heaven with a God they hate?
More confusion on your part. The emphasis is on believing and being subservient to, just to get in Heaven, not some lopsided version of 'love'. Atheists can't get into Heaven in the first place. Did you even think these questions through before typing them?
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Think about what is involved with your ability to see with your eyes, hear with your ears, processing all that data in your mind, etc.
Biology 101-nothing mystical at all. Your ignorance on the subject is your own fault.
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Your argument that Christians change the Bible to suit them is silly.
Nope. THAT's the actual gospel. You don't have a choice but to pick and choose. Have you given up everything you own and given it to the poor? No? Point proven.
Do you love and respect your parents at the same time you hate them? You can't do both even though you're supposed to.
You have to pick and choose. Deal with it.
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Read the Bible yourself and see what it says.
For what it's worth, I'm honestly under the impression I've read it more than you.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 13 Dec 2008 00:00 |
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How does one 'harden a heart'?
You just stop caring a little bit each day. You get colder a little at a time.
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if someone stood in front of you and said they were God-what would it take for that to be believable for you? Well the only way to know it was God was by his Words and actions. If he contradicted the Bible then he wouldn't be God.
Also that's not a huge worry of mine since the next time God comes to Earth it's going to be very loud and Christians are not going to be in doubt of who it is that just came for them.
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The emphasis is on believing and being subservient to, just to get in Heaven, not some lopsided version of 'love'. Are you saying you don't like the whole obedience to God thing? Is that your biggest deal against God?
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Biology 101-nothing mystical at all. Your ignorance on the subject is your own fault. What I'm talking about is truly sitting down and thinking about the miracle of sight, hearing, all the other amazing processes that a human body does. It's not by chance. Think about it. We can't even duplicate these abilities into a creation and we are trying with AI and all the rest. How can you believe it happened by random chance?
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Have you given up everything you own and given it to the poor? That proves nothing but that Jesus was talking to specific individuals when He said that.
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Do you love and respect your parents at the same time you hate them? Where does it say God commands us to hate your parents? I think what you are referring to is not suggesting we hate others but that we love Christ more. I bet if you read that in a new translation it would say so. Personally, I don't have that much of a hard time understanding what it means in the King James version.
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For what it's worth, I'm honestly under the impression I've read it more than you.
If you read it it's like a hundred miles an hour looking for stuff you don't like.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 13 Dec 2008 13:32 |
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Is that your biggest deal against God?
My biggest deal is the Bible itself. Therein lie all the problems. The followers and interpreters and followers of the interpreters exacerbate the problem.
Book of Luke
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14:21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.
14:22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.
14:23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.
14:24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.
14:25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
It's not out of context, and it's quite clear. That's Jesus speaking, in a NT book. There's no apology for this-it is what it is.
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If you read it it's like a hundred miles an hour looking for stuff you don't like.
I read it the same as any other book-front to back, page by befuddled page.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 13 Dec 2008 23:04 Last Edited By: Tim |
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Look dude, it doesn't mean hate like you and i would know it. It simply saying that a Christian is to put Christ first above all people and things.
Now follow the logic here. If you put Christ first you will love your wife and your family more because Christ also said, If you love me you will keep my commandments.
John 13
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Luke 10
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
Matthew 22
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Matthew 19
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 2
Luke 6
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. 32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. 33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. 34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. 36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
Ro 13:10 - Show Context
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Now I bet it would be easy to find a verse here or there that might sound controversial, but you know if read the Bible enough I think you'll find a common theme. That is love everyone. Reading all these verses do you really think Jesus meant for us to hate anybody. No, of course not.
You can use this site to find words in the Bible rather quickly if you need to. http://gospelresource.us/
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 14 Dec 2008 14:45 |
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Look dude, it doesn't mean hate like you and i would know it.
Bull. If it didn't mean hate, it wouldn't say hate. It means what it says. To try and circumvent this you are not obeying Jesus, and therefore, you cannot follow him.
That exact quote(entire passage even) doesn't go away because you'd rather it not be there. It doesn't get to mean something else just because, like so many other cases in this crazy collection of stories, it contradicts something else in the book. The meanings of words don't change just to suit some other meaning to make things convenient for you. Quoting other passages you like doesn't make unpleasant and inconvenient ones such as these go away either.
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you'll find a common theme.
Definitely. The theme would be blind obedience. Page after page of instruction and exxamples of blind obedience. They can call it love, and you can think this is what it is(of course you might actually be right here-but that speaks more for your tolerance than the actual subject of love), but for many of us who don't blindly serve, we don't think of that as love at all.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 16 Dec 2008 15:46 |
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So we should ignore all those verses that say love thy neighbor?
Look it's clear that if and when you read the Bible it's only to hopefully find something you can use to justify your atheism. But obviously you have to really be looking hard from your argument.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 16 Dec 2008 21:39 |
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So we should ignore all those verses that say love thy neighbor?
I didn't write any of the books or have a hand in it's editing process. It says to both love and hate and you're supposed to do both. Sorry.
What I am or what I might be looking for doesn't change what's on the page. It's there whether I read it or not. This is projecting on your side again-you're only seeing something to justify your belief. Think how hard you have to work to explain things like this and slavery and misogeny and genocide,etc just to try and adhere to 'love thy neighbor' as the dominant theme.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 17 Dec 2008 16:02 |
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Look I'm not a theologian but it's perfectly obvious to me that Jesus wouldn't spend all that time saying love your neighbor only to say hate later on.
And I've heard a very well known preacher once explain this word is just not the same translated word hate we have. Remember the Bible was once written in a completely different language.
Your problem is you don't listen to people's opinions that actually read and teach the Bible for a living.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 17 Dec 2008 22:48 |
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Jesus wouldn't spend all that time saying love your neighbor only to say hate later on.
It's there. He wouldn't do it, but he did. He shouldn't have, but he did. It doesn't make sense, but there it still is. You're gonna need a better excuse than what you're handing out here.
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Remember the Bible was once written in a completely different language.
Careful going down this road. I'm very surprised you'd want to take this trip.
You mean the book is not translated perfectly? No kidding. Now explain how it is the perfect literal word of God, divinely inspired, if someone, anyone, can just come along and translate whatever they like from the original. Now after you handle that, explain to me why only the word that is convenient for you is suspect from the original translation and absolutely nothing else. You tell me how it makes sense that someone would add whatever they want, create this amount of confusion, and the church ok's it as the canon, while you the followers defend it.
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Your problem is you don't listen to people's opinions that actually read and teach the Bible for a living.
Someone's living is on the line and their word should mean more than what I can read with my own eyes? Their word should just be taken on the subject? Really?
Here's an experiment for you. Invite a salesman into your home that sells life insurance or security systems or any type of big purchase item and let them run their pitch. You let me know afterwards if they told you anything outside of what is designed to make you want to buy what they're selling.
After that, you can explain to me how many Muslim and Jewish advisors you listen to, just to give them a fair shot.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 18 Dec 2008 20:53 |
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You mean the book is not translated perfectly? No kidding. That's not what I'm saying. At some point in history people used the word hate interchangeably I theorize. I'm not a theologian but you know this is why the Bible says to rightly divide the word of truth. That is make sure you compare scriptures as to not get confused to it's meaning.
It's clear to me that Jesus would have us to love God first, then secondly everyone else, then ourselves. So when it comes down to it if family and friends tell you to do something contrary to God's Word, you have to say no. That's what this is all saying. It's not that hard.
You should listen to preachers just don't let their opinions replace your own readings. I just suggest you learn from them.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 18 Dec 2008 23:36 |
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people used the word hate interchangeably I theorize
and what else did the word hate ever mean in your theory?
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You should listen to preachers
Right after you get your own personal Imam to show you the truth of the Quran. Let's see if you can take your own advice or recognize that it's invalid.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 20 Dec 2008 16:28 |
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Nobody in my neck of the woods ever strapped a bomb to their chest in the name of their God.
Most people I've seen actually become a lot more family oriented that trust in Jesus.
Those kinds of things make great evidence for me at least.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 20 Dec 2008 17:29 |
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Nobody in my neck of the woods ever strapped a bomb to their chest in the name of their God.
Why aren't you a Hindu, Buddhist or Jain then, if that's proof to you?
In any case, you don't seem to want to investigate any other faiths for their validity while holding that they are absolutely false. It then makes a hypocrite of you every single time to tell me I should listen to preachers. Unless you're gonna make the move to listening to other religion's leaders, stop this nonsense. Besides, I've already heard tons of 'testifying' and preaching and here I am, stronger and quite more certain in my nonbelief mainly because of the cases made -for- Christianity, and how your groups can't seem to agree with each other.
You haven't explained what hate supposed might mean in your theory either and I'm quite interested in hearing this.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 23 Dec 2008 00:39 |
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Gee whiz. Fine you believe whatever you want. Me, I'm going to try and enjoy Christmas.
I do wonder if you ever get tired of not believing in God. Must be tiresome after a while.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 23 Dec 2008 12:54 |
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I do wonder if you ever get tired of not believing in God.
Get back to me if you tire of not believing in Allah, or if you figure how silly your statement was.
Enjoy your Christmas just the same, or Kwaanza if you have a change of heart.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 23 Dec 2008 16:14 |
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I will. 
I guess you've noticed it's kind of hard for me to focus on debating at the moment with all the Christmas dinners, new Wii I got, kid is home, wife will be home after today, going to town tomorrow, etc etc, not to mention all the other stuff on the net I'm working on.
So perhaps I'll get back fully into debate mode after the holidays. Any way have a good holiday. And don't take life so seriously all the time. Sometimes it's ok to act silly. Sometimes. One must find balance. Sorry I just watched Kung Fu Panda.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 28 Dec 2008 07:57 |
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That was a good movie. I saw it for the first time the other day. Whoops I'm getting off subject. I do that a lot.
Sorry.
I've been in a very jolly mood the last couple days. Weird I don't even feel like making fun of liberals today. I'm getting into the Christmas spirit.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 28 Dec 2008 21:54 |
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Well you know it's the time for brotherly love peace on Earth good will toward men. And the Good Book says to turn the other cheek so maybe we should try harder to be nice to liberals, not agree with them of course just be more brotherly about it.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 28 Dec 2008 21:58 |
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The good book also says 'eye for an eye' so maybe you could try some balance while you're at it.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 29 Dec 2008 02:03 |
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I try to be nice to everyone. But sometimes with liberals, I just can't help it.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 29 Dec 2008 15:35 |
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Administrator
Currently Offline
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Posts: 4786
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Quote:
The good book also says 'eye for an eye' so maybe you could try some balance while you're at it. That was old testament though, Jesus said turn the other cheek. Studying the New Testament it appears that only governments should use the sword. Individuals should strive to get along with everyone.
Of course I get mad too though all the time. I'm not perfect by a long stretch especially after I've had a bad day or something.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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