But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 03 Dec 2008 12:54
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I was just guessing.
Posted: 03 Dec 2008 13:17
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Most illogical spock... __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 03 Dec 2008 15:16 Last Edited By: Tim
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You do know that scientists basically have to go along with evolution or lose their job, so it's really difficult to imagine getting an honest unbiased opinion from one unless they are very brave. And pak you know this to be true because didn't you say one should lose their job as in the case of Dr. Nathaniel Abraham, Ph.D., biologist. http://reallypolitical.com/article1017.htm __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 03 Dec 2008 22:32
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I know that if someone calls themself a biologist and gets a job involving biology, they had better go along with what science says and do what they were hired to do.
He did not do what he was hired to do and got fired-this hasn't changed.
Now, however, if someone is hired or given a grant to disprove some aspect of evolution or knock it out wholesale, that's what they're then paid to do and should do so to the best of their ability. No success stories here yet so it's no big surprise that the media you guys get fed focuses on spun versions of stories like the one you quoted, to invent a controversy where none exists. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 03 Dec 2008 22:35
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Yeah cause there are so many scientists getting paid to knock evolution. It's the other way around, knock evolution and you lose your job.
Sheesh, it ain't that hard to figure out what's going on.
Don't steam me. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 04 Dec 2008 00:12
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Quote: It's the other way around, knock evolution and you lose your job.
If you're knocking evolution, you shouldn't have had a job in a biology related field to begin with. That's like getting a job working in a deli and then later deciding you can't touch the food for your religious beliefs-dumb from the onset.
Quote: Don't steam me.
Stop fighting reality and you won't get steamed, tough guy. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 04 Dec 2008 16:00
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You prove my point, as your opinion would probably mirror that of a evolutionist boss. The results are still the same. If a scientist, probably in almost any field, thinks or does experiments based on ideas other than evolution he or she may face getting fired. Now how can science move forward if no one is allowed to even question evolution? __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 04 Dec 2008 16:23
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Quote: evolutionist boss.
These do not exist-no such thing. There is no 'evolutionist group' or 'evolutionist conspiracy'. This is called a strawman.
Quote: If a scientist, probably in almost any field, thinks or does experiments based on ideas other than evolution he or she may face getting fired.
1) The only fields of science that concern themselves with evolution at all are ones that deal primarily with biology, and further paring down leads almost strictly to animal(simple and complex) biology. A rocket engineer or chemical designer or weather forecaster, for three examples, have no use for evolution.
2) If someone is hired to work ANYWHERE and does 'their own thing' they deserve to be let go, unless they were hired SPECIFICALLY to invent or innovate. These people are quite clear on what they're specifically hired to do before they take those jobs-saying they were wronged is just nonsense.
Quote: Now how can science move forward if no one is allowed to even question evolution?
Evolution is the most battle hardened and tested theory in all of modern day science, and here it still stands. 'Nobody being allowed to question it' is just not reality.
It's a battle that is not being fought except by primarily religious based groups; wonder why that is.... I also wonder why evolution is the only science they seem to go after.
Oh wait- I know perfectly well why they do these things, you just won't believe me. Oh well. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 05 Dec 2008 20:40
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Apparently if you teach school at a university you can get fired if you don't subscribe to evolution. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 05 Dec 2008 21:21
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Just to clarify, you think someone who is a professor in any course at all at a university will get fired just for their belief(s) or someone who is teaching specifically biological science? __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 05 Dec 2008 22:00
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I think that anyone but especially in a science in a university that dares to publicly announce they question evolution and are open to a creationists point of view are in danger of losing their job. It's political correctness gone nuts. We all know how liberally minded universities are so don't even try to say they don't care if their professor's are conservative or Christian minded. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 05 Dec 2008 22:31
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Quote: It's political correctness gone nuts.
It would be if it were true. It would also be illegal. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 06 Dec 2008 18:50
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I've heard it enough times to believe there is a great amount of credibility at the very least to people getting fired and having their careers held back by their beliefs.
Just think how angry people get when you disagree with them. Look at you. You're ready to shoot somebody if they don't support gay rights, and you can't believe the left would be angry enough to fire people? __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 06 Dec 2008 21:09
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The only people I've ever mentioned wanting to shoot were abstinence peddling missionaries, which had nothing to do with gay rights. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 08 Dec 2008 17:43
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So you only want to shoot missionaries that give up every modern convenience to go and help people they've never seen before or owe anything to? You are a grumpy guss sometime. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 08 Dec 2008 17:44
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You don't own any lions do you? __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 08 Dec 2008 21:46
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I don't own lions.
and to revisit what we were talking about with the missionaries;
They come to villages sequestered away from the rest of the world pushing abstinence and ignoring condoms while the populace continues to push along HIV through oral and anal sex, thereby killing people through good intentions. If I were in any of those particular villages and they didn't leave when asked, I would kill them. That's not grumpy-that's survival. They can save themselves just by staying home, which will in turn help save the people they never interfere with.
Surely these missionaries can find someone here in their own backyard to help instead of traveling somewhere and causing problems instead? __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 09 Dec 2008 16:02
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I think you are stuck on this. Just this Sunday some missionaries talked at our church and I forgot where it was but they were talking about how hard it is to survive in certain areas where they minister. Like some kind of terrorists of some sort in that area.
They said the people were so poor that before the economy went bad they barely had enough to feed their families rice every day, but now they don't have enough to do that. The people there work so late they have to have church service late at night and yet the people still come in.
I don't think you should judge missionaries unless you've actually been in their shoes. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 09 Dec 2008 19:04
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All that has nothing to do with the spread of AIDS in Africa and my position remains on that subject.
Quote: I don't think you should judge missionaries unless you've actually been in their shoes.
They and you have judged me hell-bound before meeting me or certainly without walking in my shoes at the very least- fair's fair. We all judge. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 09 Dec 2008 21:36
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Come now pak, we don't make the rules. We don't presume to know what is in a man's heart, but the only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ. That's a fact. Believe it or not. We didn't make it up to make you feel bad. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 09 Dec 2008 21:52
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We all have this cancer called sin. The end result is death. There is a cure, and his name is Jesus. Christians just want to share the cure. It's up to you whether you want the cure or not. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 09 Dec 2008 22:05
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I don't believe there is a heaven, so I'm not concerned with how to get there.
I also don't believe in 'sin' as a thing that exists all by itself so much as a label placed on things convenient to the cause.
They both appear made up to me. I'll believe it not. Keep your 'cure'. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 09 Dec 2008 23:31
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Pretty dogmatic aren't you. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 10 Dec 2008 13:19
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Atheism has no dogma, no charter, no preliminaries. It is only the lack of a particular belief or set of beliefs concerning religion or associated deities.
Consider if you yourself believe in Bigfoot or leprechauns or Santa and if any of those are no, do you need any sort of dogma to not believe?
If you don't like those, try astrology or alchemy or divining and if you don't believe in them, consider if you need a dogma.
Before hearing about how I hurt your feelings here in not taking your faith seriously or such, please consider that I'm being as fair as the discussion allows and as a reminder:
If you can figure out why you don't believe in Judaism or Hinduism or Buddhism or Islam, you'll understand why I don't personally believe in Christianity. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 10 Dec 2008 16:06
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First of all evolution the idea that monkeys turn into men, or the concept that nothing can somehow turn into anything is about fairy tale as jack and the beanstalk. There ain't no missing links yet. Nobody sees flying monkeys or fish turning into birds.
Jesus existed as a record of history so did King David and so forth.
I don't believe in all those religions for a number of reasons. Of course the honest first reason is the way I was raised. Second, none of those other religions can say their God or prophet ever defeated death. Jesus laid down his life and He picked it right back up again on the third day. When one wants eternal life you go for the One that has defeated death.
Third, is answered prayers. That's a personal experience that I'm sure you'll scoff at so I won't bother to push the issue other than to say I've seen enough in my personal life to know God is for real. When I pray I know He hears me. I don't feel like I'm talking to thin air. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 10 Dec 2008 20:43
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I kinda feel like deja vu all over again here.
Maybe if I answer them this time you'll finally pay attention. MAYBE I HAVE TO SHOUT TO GET SOME OF THIS ACROSS AFTER SAYING IT AT LEAST A DOZEN TIMES BEFORE. Maybe if I use the bold or italics or somehow play with the font, you'll finally cut the BS. I'm gonna try semi-rational, just this once more.
-------------------------------------------------
Since you want to keep spouting the same nonsense about science, I see no need for kid gloves. Enjoy.
Quote: the idea that monkeys turn into men
Is NOT evolution. For the last time. I can't keep being nice about this-stop playing dumb, if you're actually playing that is.
Quote: the concept that nothing can somehow turn into anything
Is actually Biblical and has nothing to do with science. This is what your holy book says your god did-just magicked stuff into existence by whim or by word or by breath. Science says no such thing. Also, if you're actually referring to life being created from non-life, that would be called abiogenesis. Look it up.
Quote: There ain't no missing links yet.
At least we have something new now. Drop dead wrong, but new. Try reading a second book without pictures sometime. I'll even be so bold as to point out that because of evolution, every living thing is actually a transitional form. Again, look it up.
Quote: Nobody sees flying monkeys or fish turning into birds.
That would be correct because these are made up by imbeciles like Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron in an attempt to bend logic with strawmen arguments. This might be even stupider than the monkeys turning into men thing. If I make a decision there, I'll get back to you.
Now, I will turn it back down a notch as we address things dealing with your faith. I can't argue with what you believe-I don't even want to change your mind, but you're saying things that are just not true for everyone and stating them as fact, when you absolutely do not know them as fact. Just to be clear here-I am addressing your statements of 'fact' to the best of my knowledge, and I hope that's gonna be fair enough, cause that's as good as it's gonna get.
Quote: Jesus existed as a record of history
The only source(and I do mean only) for the historical Jesus is in your Bible. To my knowledge(and I can absolutely be wrong-but you'll need more than say so as proof), every other instance of historical reference to Jesus has been a forgery, a by product of the Bible or otherwise refuted. If we look in the Bible for those historical pieces of 'evidence' for his timeline, there are numerous inconsistencies with those accounts. If you would honestly like to know more about this, there is a documentary available to watch online, for free, called 'The god who wasn't there'.
Quote: Of course the honest first reason is the way I was raised.
Exact same thing that contributed toward my atheism.
Quote: none of those other religions can say their God or prophet ever defeated death
Actually there are quite a few ancient religions, mostly pagan, that this was 'borrowed' from. Just like the virgin birth, having a god for a parent, being born on December 25th, the resurrection after death and miracles such as healing the sick. All been done before in many many other mythologies. Jesus got many second hand attributes. I'll start you easy with just one for comparison. The Egyptian god Horus-here's a quick list:
http://greensboring.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=6316
Quote: Third, is answered prayers.
It's not my intention to scoff at this or you for believing in it. I'm quite certain you believe wholeheartedly in this being true. I've also made it quite clear that I believe it to be no more than coincidence if you do actually get a 'hit' instead of all the misses you've surely disregarded as God just knowing better. Here's the thing I want you to think about with prayer though- If God has a grand design, and loves you, and has everything already set down for you, why are you praying in the first place? On that same note, if your prayer does get answered, does that mean that you knew better than God on that particular event or person or item and just had to point it out to Him, so He could alter His plan that was already set into motion before any of us was even born? Let me know how that's exactly supposed to make sense to someone else besides you?
------------------------------------------------
On a final couple notes about faith, per a few things I've run across recently, tell me this.
1)If God exists and all of this was planned by Him from the beginning, wouldn't that mean simply that it was God's plan for me to be an atheist all along?
2)If we are all supposed to live one way, and follow the same 'rules' for living along the same path, why wouldn't he show me and all the other non-believers the same amount of evidence he showed you to convince us all equally?
Quote: Most critical scholars in the fields of history and biblical studies believe that ancient texts on Jesus' life are at least partially accurate agreeing that Jesus was a Galilean Jew who was regarded as a teacher and healer.
I just can't believe you actually have the nerve to try and erase Jesus from existence. Come on bud.
I found out that your idea came from the French Enlightenment thinkers Constantin-François Volney and Charles François Dupuis in the 1790s, but was not addressed by scholars until 1840 when historian and theologian Bruno Bauer began work which would become influential in biblical studies during the early 20th century. Authors such as Earl Doherty, Robert M. Price and George Albert Wells have recently re-popularized the argument.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_myth_hypothesis
this position remains controversial, and is not supported by a large number of biblical historians and scholars.
Richard Burridge and Graham Gould state that the Jesus Myth hypothesis is not accepted by mainstream critical scholarship.[85] Robert E. Van Voorst has stated that biblical scholars and historians regard the thesis as "effectively refuted".[86] Graham N. Stanton writes, "Today nearly all historians, whether Christians or not, accept that Jesus existed and that the gospels contain plenty of valuable evidence which has to be weighed and assessed critically. There is general agreement that, with the possible exception of Paul, we know far more about Jesus of Nazareth than about any first- or second century Jewish or pagan religious teacher."[87] Atheist New Testament scholar William Arnal writes, "No one in mainstream New Testament scholarship denies that Jesus was a Jew." __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 11 Dec 2008 16:47
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As far as false gods and mythology the very fact that Christ is still worshiped to this day should at least be some proof to you that there is something to Christ. After all if there wasn't why would all these people worship a God that does absolutely nothing for them?
Quote: 1)If God exists and all of this was planned by Him from the beginning, wouldn't that mean simply that it was God's plan for me to be an atheist all along?
You want to get heavy with your questions I guess I'll try and put on the hat of a theologian which I am not. The idea of God's will is usually put into a couple of different categories and I hope I remember this correctly. I know the concept it's the titles I'm fuzzy on. There's God's Direct Will, and His passive will.
Direct means it's His will that no one should perish and all should come to Him.
Passive would be while allowing us to make up our own minds His ultimate will is still accomplished. The Bible says He knows all those that will accept Him before the beginning of time. There's nothing that happens that surprises God.
Quote: 2)If we are all supposed to live one way, and follow the same 'rules' for living along the same path, why wouldn't he show me and all the other non-believers the same amount of evidence he showed you to convince us all equally?
He did. You have the Bible, and you got people like me trying to help you understand. You have creation to prove God exists. You exist. That's a lot of proof right there. What else do you need?
I can only be a witness to what I've seen in my life. You be the jury. I've seen major differences from people of the same family that followed God's plan for life and those that didn't.
I hope one day you might believe yourself. I really do. Being a Christian doesn't erase everything bad in life, but it gives a person a lot of hope. To me hope is the most essential ingredient in living a normal happy life there is. Take away hope and faith and what are we left with? __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 11 Dec 2008 16:59
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Quote: I just can't believe you actually have the nerve to try and erase Jesus from existence.
I'm not doing any such thing. I'm undecided on it actually. That documentary is pretty convincing though.
The fact that it's not supported by people whose livlihoods center on Biblical accuracy is not exactly surprising either.
What Mr Stanton writes is again, based on that one source that the people making the claim against Jesus even existing are using as well-the gospels themselves. It's all highly controversial. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
