Quote: After watching a documentary film on HBO, I give a few comments about Ted Haggard. After building a career condemning homosexuals, he was busted doing crystal meth and having a homosexual relationship. Now all the people that he taught how to hate...hate him! Poetic justice or tragedy? You be the judge.
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But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 05 Feb 2009 22:21 Last Edited By: Tim
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This video is really loadin slow.
All I can say is sin is sin. Doesn't matter who does it. I bet the church folk in question would show a lot more compassion towards those living in gay lifestyles than you think.
First when you have a role model, a preacher, teacher, etc that says one thing and does another. That's hypocrisy. Nobody responds well to that. Another thing is as Christians no matter if they do or do not feel sympathy for Haggard, they cannot Biblically allow him to preach in their church. And I'm sure any group would not want someone who said one thing and did another to stand up every week preaching or teaching to them either.
I don't know how Haggard approached his teaching. I've never saw him or heard him I don't think. I do know you can't put your faith in men. They'll always let you down. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 06 Feb 2009 01:32
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Haggard is one of those people we of the atheist persuasion use as an example, and funny enough, we use him as an example in arguments specifically for the hypocrisy. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 06 Feb 2009 15:29
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But here's the thing, nobody or any group is free from hypocrites. In Jesus day it was the Pharisees. Who did Jesus preach against most it was them.
The Pharisees though were guilty of not only being hypocritical but were guilty of adding things to God's laws. Like a million rules to how to live on the Sabbath.
They weren't people who cared about what sin was doing to their fellow man. They only cared about how to look better than their fellow man. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 06 Feb 2009 22:08
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Quote: But here's the thing, nobody or any group is free from hypocrites.
Not only does that not make it OK, but tht doesn't excuse Haggard from getting his comeuppance.
Quote: They only cared about how to look better than their fellow man.
You probably won't agree with me, but this is sincerely what I think of Paul.(then again, who am I to argue the Bible with you?)It wasn't solely about appearances for Ted-that's how he made his living. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 07 Feb 2009 17:21
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Are you referring to Paul the Apostle? Why would you think he was just interested in looking good for his fellow man? After his conversion where he changed his name from Saul to Paul all he ever did was suffer. He was constantly imprisoned.
Ted sounds like a con artist to me. You know crooks lie and they will say anything to steal some money. If he could have made money talking at gay conventions he would. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 08 Feb 2009 14:17
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Yes, Paul the Apostle, who cashed in on the character of Jesus and made so many rules circumventing and even perverting the teachings of Jesus, most of you probably have no business calling yourselves Christians. Paulines would be much more fitting with the rules and customs many of you choose to follow. I can't say it's too credible that he suffered much, but quite possibly he did and if so, he did literally bring it on himself like our friend Ted here. If either is true, neither warrant any sympathy from me. You say Ted sounds like a con artist, and I agree. I just go that step further and say so was Paul.
As much as that includes you personally, please don't take that too personal. I think you've been sold a bill of goods is all, and if you guys are victims of fraud here, I certainly can't hold you responsible. That is honestly as I see it, and it's a blanket statement of observation and not a personal condemnation of any one particular group or individual. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 09 Feb 2009 17:05
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Ok, I've never heard anyone attack Paul the Apostle before. Exactly what did Paul ever say that contradicted Jesus?
I'm not taking it personal. If you called me a low down dirty bum. Then I'd take it personal. Sounds like you are just sharing information you picked up somewhere. Sounds way out there, but I'm curious so please continue. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 09 Feb 2009 21:41
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Quote: Exactly what did Paul ever say that contradicted Jesus?
It's your book, so you should know it better than me. If you're asking for a line by line comparison, I'm not really looking for that much work for myself. Compare for yourself, Jesus' message of love and understanding, cleansing the unclean, feeding and clothing the poor and loving thine enemy with what Paul offers in just the books of Corinthians and Romans, which is basically what God supposedly hates, punishment and intolerence. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 09 Feb 2009 23:14
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You have to give me at least one specific case I can argue against.
I can't say as I ever read anything in the New Testament that contradicted the teachings of Christ.
You make it sound like Paul said hate your enemies, kill the poor, and such. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 10 Feb 2009 13:08
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Not in so many words, but yes, Paul pushed more hateful things than Jesus did. Jesus was about saving others while Paul had a long list of things to stone people to death over. Jesus was all encompassing and accepting while Paul was more exclusive in whom deserved being saved. Jesus focused more on bounty and love while Paul was all about penalties and punishment.
If I point at specific things vs other specific things, it doesn't really make a case, at least for an atheist to a Christian. The only thing I can suggest, if you're really concerned about this at this point, is to seperate them and size up their words and deeds seperately, something like a performance review. You judge for yourself, on the sum total of what they each said and did, compared to each other, if there is any difference. I don't think this is something I can convince you of, regardless of what I point to, or how strongly I believe it. You'd have to find it yourself, which makes it that much harder, because you'd have to actually not be wary of finding it, which means being as totally objective as you can, which faith has a tendency of defeating. That's a journey I can't force you to take, and maybe i was wrong to even suggest all of this, but if you decide you want those answers, I do wish you well on that journey. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 10 Feb 2009 15:46 Last Edited By: pakratmak
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It is not my intention to deconvert you or sway you to atheism. As you said, I am just sharing information. As I stated in that last post, my case won't be strong as an atheist speaking to a Christian. Keeping that in mind, I found an interesting site that speaks volumes more than I can clearly do myself on the subject.
If this seems like trickery on my part or my insinuations have offended in any way, then by all means go no further with this. You certainly have nothing to prove to me and I have nothing to personally gain by causing you anguish or upset. I will simply say this, offer the link and be done, whatever the outcome afterward.
IF Paul is the snake oil salesman I suggest he is, and what he has sold has been the cause of misery and hatred and unconscionable death and injury for centuries now, would you not do well to recognize this possibly evil man for what he is, if for no other reason than to get closer to Jesus? For my part, I do gain personally if he is the villain I think he is and can show it so that the world improves in the recognition-in fact, if it's true and it becomes widely recognized-we are all better off for it. I know very well that not only can I be wrong here, but even if I'm right, you will more than likely not recognize it, or worse, not admit it. I think it's worth the meager effort I present here and the hazard of offense to try.
Also if you want to continue talking on this or not, I'll understand either way and respect it. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 10 Feb 2009 18:36
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Quote: Paul pushed more hateful things than Jesus did
I welcome the opportunity to discuss this, but without a clear comparison from you I don't know exactly what to object to specifically.
Since you aren't giving me a specific I'll have to guess that perhaps when you say Paul pushed hateful things you mean Paul preached against sin. I don't think Paul's message was contrary in any way to the love of Christ by pointing out the differences between right and wrong. Jesus never excused sin. He was simply forgiving it as being God He was in the position to do so. He came not to condemn the world but that the world through Him might be saved.
It is necessary for sinner's to realize they have sinned before they can also realize they have need of forgiveness and a Saviour. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 10 Feb 2009 20:41
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Quote: without a clear comparison from you
Read the post above the last one I wrote or check the site. Best I can offer you. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 11 Feb 2009 14:17
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It never ceases to amaze me when I hit my subscriptions on YouTube and run across a topic I was recently discussing elsewhere.
While this is not a perfect fit to what we were talking about, it applies enough when we talk of interpretation. In any case, I thought you might find this interesting.
Quote: The Teachings Of Jesus Christ - Matthew Modine @ Big Think.
Matthew Modine is an actor who has starred in major films including "Streamers", "Full Metal Jacket", "Married to the Mob", "Pacific Heights", "Any Given Sunday", and "Notting Hill". His recent television work includes Showtime's hit, "Weeds". And he recently wrote, directed and starred in the short film "I Think I Thought" about a man who cures himself of over-thinking. He lives in New York
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But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 11 Feb 2009 16:08
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What a weird freak he is. Doesn't he just creep you out.
