I challenge both atheists and Christians alike to listen and learn the true history of America that modernists have often tried to rewrite. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 26 Feb 2009 00:00
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Christians were there and Christian related events happened...ok. So what?
After that a commentary about exactly how Christian some of those individuals were...ok. So what?
Obviously I'm not signing a petition or sending a 'gift'. Onward...
'true history of America' is interesting salesmanship Tim. Disproportionate history of minor events is more like it.
A DVD for sale too? What a surprise.
Well, that's another half hour I won't be getting back, so thanks on behalf of that. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 26 Feb 2009 16:40
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Oh brother. If I weren't suffering from a sinus infection. I'd say something. I'm too sick to know what I'd say though. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 26 Feb 2009 19:30
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Feel better. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 26 Feb 2009 20:40
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I think I'm getting an ulcer now. Take too many aspirins. Supposed to be good for your heart, but apparently it causes ulcers too. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 26 Feb 2009 20:43
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Forget I said that, probably just in my head. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 26 Feb 2009 21:48
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Was George Washington a Christian or Deist? Historical revisionists claim he was a Deist! But what self-respecting Deist would get on his knees every night and pray like he did? How did Washington and our other Founders apply their faith in writing the Constitution? Find out on Truths That Transform with Dr. D. James Kennedy.
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 27 Feb 2009 06:14
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I hope someone can give you more of a response you're actually looking for with this stuff Tim. I can't help you. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 27 Feb 2009 16:01
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I'm not necessarily looking for a response. I just want to get it out there so people can listen to it. You know that 99 percent of web visitors never actually respond. At least that's my best guess based on the amount of traffic I've seen coming and going on all my websites. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 27 Feb 2009 22:09
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For the passerby then? I can get behind that. Here's one for the nonresponder:
__________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 09 Nov 2009 22:48
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Let's be clear, regardless of who founded our nation, and what their personal beliefs may have been, the U.S. is not a Christian Nation.
If the United States were a christian nation we would provide universal healthcare to all regardless of their ability to pay. We would welcome the poor and hungry of the world to our shores so that they may feast on our bounty. We ensure that no man sleeps hungry or cold, and no child is left without care and protection.
The principles of Christianity are fairly strait forward, all men are your brothers and you must care for them. Jesus made no mention of your neighbor being only those born within the boarders of your nation. Jesus made no mention of means testing for those who come to you hungry or sick.
Jesus commands us to care for our brothers, one and all, and if you are a christian, you should do this. Just as if you are Jew you should do this, and if you follow Islam you should do this. All the children of Abraham are given the same rules, to care and protect the weakest amongst us for we too were once aliens in a strange land.
Our nation however is not a christian nation, nor jewish nor muslim, merely a nation with christians, jews and muslims in it. Our nation is not commanded to care for any except when by democratic fiat it is commanded to do so. On the dollar the face of Washington smiles back, and unto Washington go to handle the affairs of Washington. The affairs of God are a different matter entirely, and one cannot serve both Washington and God, any more than one can serve God and Washington. If you tried to serve both you would invariably serve neither and blaspheme both.
So, if you are Christian be Christian, and care for your brothers however you may. And if you are not Christian then do as you will, and be aware of the will of Washington in your works, as you must live within it's laws as must every Christian.
Washington may care for the downtrodden if that is what is in Washington's best interest, but its command to do so is from popular acclaim not devine mandate.
Posted: 12 Nov 2009 20:54
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Quote: If the United States were a christian nation we would provide universal healthcare to all regardless of their ability to pay.
That always cracks me up when even my fellow Christians who happen to be liberals say we have to have universal healthcare and all that because Christians are supposed to take care of the poor.
Thing is the Bible commands individuals to help their fellow man. It's easy for me as an individual to just say, ok government take my neighbor's money and help the poor. That's not Christianity that's robbery. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 12 Nov 2009 21:30
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The idea of capitalism shrieks in the face of Jesus' notion that a person should give away or sell all that they own as well, never mind turning the other cheek.
------------------------------------
Maybe it's just me, being otuside the Christian sphere of influence and all, but a Christian calling someone or something else Christian depends wholly on what they consider a 'true Christian' to be. They all seem to pick and choose whatever parts of the source material serve them the best to create that umbrella term and ignore the rest. Don't take this too personally. The Muslims are at least as guilty in this, as their holy book(s) is(are) that much more of a jumble in all of their seven 'official' translations, none of which read like a normal book from start to finish and bring self-contradiction to an artform.
Quote: ok government take my neighbor's money and help the poor. That's not Christianity that's robbery.
Makes you just want a wall of seperation between church and state, doesn't it? __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 12 Nov 2009 23:19
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Actually Tim, the bible commands you to leave a portion of your field unharvested so that the poor and the alien (those darn illegals) can take what they need. As such, one could say the bible commands us to give a portion of our bounty to the poor, and if we were a christian nation, that bounty would be collected and distributed to those in need.
Hey I agree with you Tim, we aren't a Christian Nation, so the state has no right to force such niceties on us, regardless of our personal beliefes.
The bottom line is if the nation is Christian, then the nation is obligated to behave like christ, healing the sick, caring for the needed, and turning the other cheek.
Now I am certain you wouldn't have wanted us to be like christ at Peral Harbor, or on 9/11, I would think you would want us to be like Ceasar, to fight and make war as needed to perserve our nation and our freedoms.
That is why the realm of ceasars is ceasars and not the realm of God.
So Ceasar may give gifts of grain to citizens to keep the peace and protect the empire from anarchy, but he doesn't do so because all men are his brothers, the results might be similar but the motivation is not christian.
So with health care or what ever Ceasar wishes we should ask, what should ceasar do, not what would jesus do. Is there economic benefit to universal healthcare? I think there is, you disagree, we discuss it and democracy produces an answer outside of God and goodness.
This is why I oppose the notion of our nation as a christian nation. There are too many devilish nations in the world to trust a nation run by christ.
Second you start making laws out of goodness and christianity you're on a slippery slope to a godly socialism. So best we remain an agnostic nation serving the affairs of ceasar and ruled by popular fiat and not some morality determined by some group or another.
Posted: 13 Nov 2009 22:16
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Quote: bible commands you to leave a portion of your field unharvested
Actually that was to the nation of Israel. Not really applied to the New Testament church.
Quote: the nation is obligated to behave like christ, healing the sick, caring for the needed, and turning the other cheek.
Taking care of the sick and poor is a personal one on one or function of the church biblically speaking. When the government takes from one person and gives it to another it's stealing. And it would be stealing if the church took money by gun point or any other person took money by gunpoint to give to the poor or needy. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 14 Nov 2009 09:18
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If you listened to Jesus and sold or gave everything away, there'd be nothing to steal. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 15 Nov 2009 00:27
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Tim, you read the bible in a very convenient way, but I guess we all do.
However, if you agree that the care of the sick and the poor is a personal responsibility for Christians, then if the nation is Christian it has a personal responsibility to do these things as well.
That you feel that the state has no personal responsibility to act in a christian manner, the nation cannot be christian. Which is fine, and is what I had said. The state is not christian for it does not act like christ. The state acts like a disinterested agnostic observer, doing the work it is directed to do by popular fiat and corporate money (money equalling speech, and speech being distributed unequally in society).
Posted: 19 Nov 2009 23:00
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I look at it from the perspective I believe our founder had. The government is here to protect the freedom of the people. To worship as they see fit. They never meant for the government to run from God. To worry that some teacher might mention God in class. That's a creation of this generation. Our founders never meant for the ACLU's version of America.
If the government is to act like an individual Christian then lets break that down. Pretend I'm the government and you Matches and Pak just citizens. Now lets say you've been saving your money and working hard to buy your family a bigger home, but I the government say give me some more of your money because Pak isn't making as much as you. In fact I come into your house and forcibly take your money and give it to Pak. How Christian would that be?
So you see a Christian nation doesn't really coexist with welfare or universal healthcare. Because those programs rely on forcibly stealing money from one person to give to another. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 20 Nov 2009 02:20
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Quote: The government is here to protect the freedom of the people.
All citizens, not just selected ones.
Quote: To worship as they see fit.
Even the ones who worship differently than you and even not at all.
Quote: They never meant for the government to run from God.
Or to God or from Allah or to Jupiter or away from Thor.
Quote: Pretend I'm the government and you Matches and Pak just citizens.
You would have been overthrown long ago.
Quote: Now lets say you've been saving your money and working hard to buy your family a bigger home
The system is not conducive to this, much less the government. 'Saving for a home' is next to impossible. You have to work with credit and the government is counting on you to do so as well as capitalism in general.
Quote: In fact I come into your house and forcibly take your money and give it to Pak. How Christian would that be?
If it's 10% of your income, land or possessions and it's done with a collection plate in your face at the expense of embarrassing yourself in front of the rest of the congregation- perfectly Christian.
Quote: So you see a Christian nation doesn't really coexist with welfare or universal healthcare.
Jesus would disagree.
Quote: Because those programs rely on forcibly stealing money from one person to give to another.
and not on community, goodwill or the possibility that you yourself might need the benefits someday? Remind me how the government pays for our military and their wars again, and who gets that money by the way and what's done with that money from there and what it bought. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 20 Nov 2009 20:12
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Or to put it another way Tim, a nation cannot be Christian, because the duties and responsibilities of a nation preclude it acting in a christian manner.
As we've previously said. The raising of an army, the retaliation for crimes committed against her, these are not christian things to do.
Just as you can't steal someone who is being uncharitable's money, you can't force another nation to submit to your will.
The nation cannot be christian because the work of ceasar is too important to leave to a long hair idealist like Christ.
So in the end we are not a christian nation, but a secular theocracy, ruled by the constitution and governed by the collective will of the people through their representatives.
I think that's a better system then the hippieocracy that Jesus would demand.
Posted: 23 Nov 2009 23:45
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Quote: If it's 10% of your income, land or possessions and it's done with a collection plate in your face at the expense of embarrassing yourself in front of the rest of the congregation- perfectly Christian.
Dude, I've never saw a preacher threaten to put me in jail for not paying tithes. They can ask for money a lot but they can't send you to hell for not paying it. The government can put you in jail. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 24 Nov 2009 12:52
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Missing the point Tim. Not a problem though. I completely understand. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 24 Nov 2009 17:06
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Actually Tim, depending on your church, yes they can send you to hell as it were.
There are a few denominations of christiranity (and many other religions) who take their tithing very seriously, and declare those who do not pay as hand maidens of satan.
Which actually, when you get right down to it is the other problem with a christian nation.
Excatly what kind of christian are we talking about? Messianic Jews, Evangelicals, Roman Catholics, Anglacans and Unitarians all may claim a chrisitan lable, but each has their own interpretation of what it means to be a Christian.
Now our founders were for the most part, at least on paper, IIRC Church of England devotes (Ironically enough) As a Catholic I have no interest in lvining in a COE nation, and I'm sure my Jewish wife likely would have issues as well.
The nation can't be Christian because it needs to include all it's citizens, and depending on how you define the term, a large poriton of it's citizens simply aren't Christians.
Posted: 25 Nov 2009 18:07
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Here's the thing. Here is exactly where liberals confuse the line on separation of church and state that Thomas Jefferson wrote about in a letter to a minister. The founders had no issue with our nation being a Christian nation. They simply didn't want a particular denomination to control everything. They'd have no problem with proclaiming Christ is King in schools or a simple Merry Christmas but they would have a problem with the state forcing everyone to attend the local southern baptist church, or forcing tithes be paid to the local St. Mary's Catholic church etc. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 25 Nov 2009 19:54
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Quote: The founders had no issue with our nation being a Christian nation.
That's simply not true and we've been over this many times now. It's selective reasoning on your part, to say that the religious freedom they sought after was simply freedom for Christians and not for any other religion or even a lack of an organized religion in the case of the deists present and accounted for. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 25 Nov 2009 20:20
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Well Tim, I am going to agree with you. The Founding Fathers likely wouldn't have a problem with calling ourselves a Christian nation. Primarily because the nation was likely (at least among the land owning white male voting class) Christians.
The problem is, our nation is vastly differnt than it was 200 years ago (just for starters they recently gave women the vote! of all things).
In that world it becomes harder and harder to call ourselves a Christian nation. As I pointed out, if CAtholic's dont' get to be christians as would have been the common opinion of many of the founding fathers no doubt, are christians still a majority in this country?
Liekwise, when you have significant non-christian minorities, at what point does calling christ the king result in a declaration of a national religion.
Remember you could call us unitarian christians which is about as inoffensive of a branch of christianity as you can find, but that would be establishing a state religion which was the concern of the founders.
United against a common enemy you might build a christian coallition that is quite large and powerful in this nation to have ourselves called a christian nation, but once in power, once we start deviding up what is and is not a christian, then your right back into your COE, and people getting run out of the country or worse for not believing hte party line.
There is no doubt a christian heritage to this country, just as there is a german heritage to this country (a very large portion of the native born american population has at least some german heritage). But just as we are not a German Nation, it would be a very bad idea to call ourselves a Christian Nation.
Posted: 25 Nov 2009 22:54
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I guess that you would have to argue with our founders. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 25 Nov 2009 23:07
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Well,that's kind of the thing. The founders of this nation died a very very long time ago. So their perceptions of the world should be taken in the context inwhich they existed.
It's telling for example, that there is no mention of the creator in our constitution (which if you are an originalist like me is the text from which you derive our secular theocracy, and the only text applicable to such study) that omission was likely intentional.
If we opperate from the notion that our founders sought to limit the governments power, then it would have been foolish of them to align their central authority with any omnipotent diety.
Our Founders (and as a point we were founded by a much wider swath of Americans than just Jefferson, Washington and Adams despite the fact that we go to them for quotes to bolster our theories the most)were likely Christians in however you would like to define that term. Being a diest for example does not preclude a devotion or admiration for the figure of Christ, so I think saying our founders were diests isn't a full argument against the christian nation suggestion.
What I think is a far more powerful argument is that this christian nature is not empowered in our founding document. Even though it existed, even though it would have been far from controversial, our founders ommitted it. I can only surmise that was intentional, and that was to ensure that our nation not allow itself to fall into petty squables about religion but that the nation should be free to grow and develop it's own character apart from it's English and Anglican heritage.
These men were revolutionaries, they would have had no interest in tying this nation to a past and society they were in many ways rejecting.
