|
|
| Posted: 25 Sep 2007 07:36 |
|
|
|
zod69
|
|
|
some of you that have read my posts may be surprised by my stance on this subject, but what difference does it make if his sons aren't serving? that's not his fault or even his decision. if i was him, here's how i would answer the question about why my sons aren't serving. "I would be very proud of my sons if they served in the army but they are grown men and that was their decision." it's like blaming Cheney for his daughter being a dyke.
|
| Posted: 25 Sep 2007 15:54 |
|
|
Registered User
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 1408
Join Date: Jul 2007
|
You know, I understand the train of thought that says 'if youre so gung-ho about the war then you should put your money where your mouth is'. I understand it, but I dont necessarily agree with it.
Let's say the highway near my house desperately needs an on-ramp and we all agree that it needs an on-ramp. Am I then obligated to go out there and start pouring asphalt? I think you can understand that the country needs to go in a certain direction militarily and still feel that the people already in place are adequate for the job. Not everyone in society is obligated to do everything that a society does. We play different roles at different places in our life.
I did 6 years in the military, most of it in the Persian Gulf, and when 9/11 happened, I had been out for a couple of years, and really considered going back in. If I had thought I was needed, I would have, and still would, despite being an old guy now. But I decided that I wasn't needed, and I don't think that makes me a chickenhawk or any of those other clever names people sling around in lieu of rational discourse.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
|
| Posted: 25 Sep 2007 15:55 |
|
|
|
Captain America
|
|
|
Quote:
t's like blaming Cheney for his daughter being a dyke.
She was born a lesbian. His sons can choose whether to go to Iraq.
|
| Posted: 25 Sep 2007 18:54 Last Edited By: Tim |
|
|
Administrator
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 4786
Join Date: Jul 2007
|
She chose to be a lesbian. Babies aren't born lusting after the same sex. That's just dumb.  Babies are born black or white etc. You can't choose your color of skin. You can choose who you sleep with.
I think you have to remember that we have a volunteer army. This is a democracy. We have a military set up to take on terrorists, and if you join you know you are going to be called to do difficult things, but it's still a choice. The choice to serve is very heroic, but it does not automatically follow that you are a coward if you stay home. Perhaps one day the war might rise to the level where every able bodied man must join, but let's pray that it never comes to that.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
|
| Posted: 25 Sep 2007 19:00 |
|
|
|
Captain America
|
|
|
Quote:
We have a military set up to take on terrorists
Actually, we have a military more geared toward large-scale warfare, not small-ops and insurgency, hence the some of the problems we're having in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Quote:
but it does not automatically follow that you are a coward if you stay home
It does if you're of age to serve and advocate for war. IMO, of course.
Quote:
You can choose who you sleep with.
Sure, but not to whom you're attracted. That's biology.
|
| Posted: 25 Sep 2007 19:11 |
|
|
|
Administrator
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 4786
Join Date: Jul 2007
|
|
Quote:
Sure, but not to whom you're attracted. That's biology.
You can choose anything in life. Why is it that you believe gay people are the only ones in life that can't choose their course of actions? It's just propaganda.
Don't you get it, once folks were convinced that gays were born that way, they could start the foundation for legally asking for minority status like a race of people. This is something that irritates a lot of real minorities, and I don't blame them.
Now every gay isn't trying to run some political game, but there is a group that is trying to gain political clout and change the laws of our country to meet their particular lifestyle.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
|
| Posted: 25 Sep 2007 19:21 |
|
|
|
Captain America
|
|
|
Quote:
You can choose anything in life. Why is it that you believe gay people are the only ones in life that can't choose their course of actions?
They choose plenty in their lives. You are drawn to women. I am drawn to women. There are men who are not. Are those men (and women who are drawn to women) supposed to not act on their biologically derived drives with people of similar chemistry?
And sex ain't just for making babies, either.
I know what you're going to say, and we disagree. I've known enough gay folks to know they didn't choose their orientation.
And so what if they can marry and share insurance costs and next-of-kin status and all that fun stuff? Does it really impact your myopically lived life?
You know damn well gays aren't trashing marriage: Divorce and foolish marriages are.
|
| Posted: 25 Sep 2007 19:53 |
|
|
|
Registered User
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 1408
Join Date: Jul 2007
|
You know, we only really need one topic on this site, becuase no matter where it starts, it ends up the same place.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
|
| Posted: 25 Sep 2007 20:02 |
|
|
|
Administrator
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 4786
Join Date: Jul 2007
|
I want you to look at the psychological ramifications of a culture that pushes on it's young people the idea that they are predistined to be gay. How many teenagers confused as they are already might partake in some gay act, and then be convinced that they must be gay because that's what society says. Once gay always gay. You are taking the choice away from them, and creating what we Christians feel is an immoral lifestyle choice.
You know teens are confused and face a lot of pressure in the sex department as it is, but according to you these on the fence teens out there should know their gay without any thought right? Doesn't take any thought to know you are black or white, and if you are born gay surely you'd know all of your life, right?
I wonder how many kids have a stray thought, and suddenly believe they have to be gay, or otherwise believe the so-called bigoted Christian view. See it all brings a terrible psychological dilemma for today's kids that doesn't need to be there. Wouldn't it be much healthier for kids to know that they have a choice in life. Sure we Christians are going to let them know that some choices are wrong, but that's better than letting them go on thinking they are stuck in whatever rut they find themselves in.
You've even got kids that get molested that think they have to be gay because they were forced into it. This is just not a healthy approach for society to go in.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
|
| Posted: 25 Sep 2007 20:03 |
|
|
|
Administrator
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 4786
Join Date: Jul 2007
|
|
Quote:
it ends up the same place.
usually it ends up back on iraq.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
|
| Posted: 25 Sep 2007 20:33 |
|
|
Registered User
|
Posts: 4725
Join Date: Aug 2007
|
|
Quote:
You know, we only really need one topic on this site, becuase no matter where it starts, it ends up the same place.
Can't argue with that. Let's change it then, preacher man. Come up with something new to talk about and if it steers out of control back to the same previous missions, we'll just have to steer it back.
I'm gonna start shortly with posting some things from the comic/movie 'V for Vendetta'.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
|
| Posted: 25 Sep 2007 20:37 |
|
|
|
Captain America
|
|
|
Quote:
I want you to look at the psychological ramifications of a culture that pushes on it's young people the idea that they are predistined to be gay.
If you're wrong, as I believe you are, then we live in a culture that pushes on people that they are committing a sin for being what they are born to be.
Quote:
these on the fence teens out there
I don't think there are many teens on the fence. I think there are those with problems … problems that stem from living in a society that doesn't accept them for something they can't change.
Quote:
if you are born gay surely you'd know all of your life, right?
The gays I've known have said they knew all their lives. They (some) just had difficulty because of social mores that lambasted them.
Quote:
I wonder how many kids have a stray thought, and suddenly believe they have to be gay
What?!? I doubt many straight guys have a stray thought then plunge, headfirst in manlove. F*cking laughable.
Quote:
Wouldn't it be much healthier for kids to know that they have a choice in life.
You keep saying the choice is the problem. Not sure I follow you.
Quote:
. Sure we Christians are going to let them know that some choices are wrong
Thank you, superior Christians, for letting everyone know the way! That's why we need the separation between church and state that Jefferson advocated.
|
| Posted: 25 Sep 2007 20:46 |
|
|
|
Registered User
|
Posts: 4725
Join Date: Aug 2007
|
|
Quote:
Sure we Christians are going to let them know that some choices are wrong, but that's better than letting them go on thinking they are stuck in whatever rut they find themselves in.
What if the rut is Christianity?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
|
| Posted: 25 Sep 2007 21:21 |
|
|
|
Administrator
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 4786
Join Date: Jul 2007
|
|
Quote:
What if the rut is Christianity?
That's a hateful thing to say. I'm not going to get sucked into a hour long rampage though. Just know I don't appreciate that.
I would just like to know how it has been proven that gays are born with a gene that takes away all ability to choose. The fact is you liberally minded folk are not going to even consider the matter from my side because you don't acknowledge the existence of sin.
Here's the thing though, if people are born gay, then how come people aren't given special privileges for being born smokers? How about being born a drug addict? How about something silly like being born with freckles? Let's start a movement for freckled people.
You can't tell me people don't have a choice. Just because someone might find a choice difficult doesn't mean they've lost the choice. You could tell me somebody had gay feelings or lusts since they hit puberty, but don't tell me they were forced into it unless they were molested of course.
I'll say it again, babies are born fat, short, black, white, but not gay. Gay should be a verb, not a adjective.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
|
| Posted: 25 Sep 2007 21:33 |
|
|
|
Captain America
|
|
|
Quote:
Here's the thing though, if people are born gay, then how come people aren't given special privileges for being born smokers? How about being born a drug addict? How about something silly like being born with freckles? Let's start a movement for freckled people.
My IQ dropped four points just reading that BS.
Again, the gay folks I have known have all said they knew they were gay since they could remember anything at all. You know, the guys who played with dolls and stripped Ken instead of Barbie?
Anyway, this ain't getting no where.
|
| Posted: 25 Sep 2007 22:46 |
|
|
|
Registered User
|
Posts: 4725
Join Date: Aug 2007
|
|
Quote:
then how come people aren't given special privileges for being born smokers? How about being born a drug addict? How about something silly like being born with freckles? Let's start a movement for freckled people.
You can't tell me people don't have a choice. Just because someone might find a choice difficult doesn't mean they've lost the choice. You could tell me somebody had gay feelings or lusts since they hit puberty, but don't tell me they were forced into it unless they were molested of course.
1)You might want to figure out the line between accepting a difference and praising it.
2)A baby can be born addicted to a particular drug like crack or heroin but not cigarettes.
3)Certain things can't be chosen, like having freckles or being attracted to the same sex, while other things can be chosen like acting on that attraction. Just because you have a problem with it because of a line in your book does not make it wrong. The line says that 'man should not lay down with man' right? So does that mean God has no problem with lesbians or is it what your church says it means and what you interpret it as?
4)Christians get in a rut like everyone else Tim. Get over this too.
5) Tool time again today, what gives? We were doing so well.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
|
| Posted: 25 Sep 2007 23:14 |
|
|
|
Administrator
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 4786
Join Date: Jul 2007
|
|
Quote:
Anyway, this ain't getting no where.
Not if all you can do is be a smart alec about it.
Quote:
Christians get in a rut like everyone else Tim. Get over this too.
That's not the way you put it the first time.
Quote:
Just because you have a problem with it because of a line in your book does not make it wrong. It's not my book, it's God's book.
The problem I have with you all, I can never understand how you identify the difference between good and evil, right and wrong without having a definitive source. I mean think about it, if right and wrong were dependent on people's opinions or logical judgements only, then there would be no standard right or wrong or any standard on what makes evil either.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
|
| Posted: 25 Sep 2007 23:22 |
|
|
|
Captain America
|
|
|
Quote:
Not if all you can do is be a smart alec about it.
We don't agree on a fundamental point: Nature vs. nurture. And it's not like your lacking in quips.
Quote:
It's not my book, it's God's book.
It's a book written by men, because there is no god.
Quote:
I can never understand how you identify the difference between good and evil, right and wrong without having a definitive source.
More than anything, it takes critical thinking skills. Granted, there are many things which we consider evil right off the boot: Lying, murder, unprovoked violence, mental and physical cruelty, for instance. Again, I don't think the bible is devoid of lessons. But it's far, far, far from definitive.
|
| Posted: 26 Sep 2007 00:52 |
|
|
|
Administrator
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 4786
Join Date: Jul 2007
|
|
Quote:
And it's not like your lacking in quips. I'm trying to be light hearted, but I'm honestly not trying to start world war 3.
Quote:
It's a book written by men, because there is no god.
I'm glad I'm not you pal because whether you believe it or not doesn't cause God to not exist. There was a day in this country when even heathens had enough respect to watch what they said about the Almighty. I'm just saying for your own benefit, I'd watch it. Even from your point of view ain't no sense in taking chances, right?
Quote:
More than anything, it takes critical thinking skills. Granted, there are many things which we consider evil right off the boot: Lying, murder, unprovoked violence, mental and physical cruelty, for instance. Critical thinking skills, huh? You mind explaining the process of which you go through to determine whether or not something is evil, and just how do you expect others to agree with you if there is no definitive source that all can go to?
It's like playing basketball without a set of rules to follow. If everyone played according to their own rules you might as well call it wrestling.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
|
| Posted: 26 Sep 2007 14:10 |
|
|
|
Captain America
|
|
|
Quote:
ou mind explaining the process of which you go through to determine whether or not something is evil, and just how do you expect others to agree with you if there is no definitive source that all can go to?
Well, there are many sources – with the bible playing a role (but i think the jealous god bit in the 10Cs, for instance), makes it less than the definitive source.
But, in a vacuum, I'll say the logic would be this: Does one consciously make an action in which he or she knowingly negatively impacts someone else? And to what degree does said action negatively impact someone else?
That's a basic formula for determination of good and evil.
|
| Posted: 26 Sep 2007 15:05 |
|
|
|
Registered User
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 1408
Join Date: Jul 2007
|
|
Quote:
But, in a vacuum, I'll say the logic would be this: Does one consciously make an action in which he or she knowingly negatively impacts someone else? And to what degree does said action negatively impact someone else?
Outside of any higher moral authority than myself, what benefit is it to me to even care whether or not I negatively impact anyone else?
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
|
| Posted: 26 Sep 2007 15:42 |
|
|
|
Captain America
|
|
Well, I guess it means answering to one another, which is what we do in real life. Why is everything always about one's own benefit? Is it so difficult to balance your benefit to that of the world around you? You don't need god for that. At least I don't.
I don't mean to sound snarky here, but is the fear of eternal punishment what keeps believers in line? If so, believe away, but understand that's a pretty low bar for personal responsibility.
|
| Posted: 26 Sep 2007 20:03 |
|
|
|
Administrator
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 4786
Join Date: Jul 2007
|
|
Quote:
I don't mean to sound snarky here, but is the fear of eternal punishment what keeps believers in line? No, a believer is saved by Christ's sacrafice on calvary's cross. You can't earn it by good works, just accept He paid the debt for our sins.
We do right because we love God and want to please Him. We do have to face Him one day and give an account of everything we did on Earth.
Historically speaking a healthy fear of God has always been helpful in motivating men to do right especially if they had any sort of religious upbringing at all.
Now atheists can be nice guys even nicer than some Christians, but they don't really have a reason to be based on their own logic. To be nice to others for no personal gain is surely a great attribute, but the question you have to ask is who was it that first said that. God is the one who first commanded we love one another. Jesus had radical ideas back in the day. Telling people to turn the other cheek, and love your enemies. That's not something most folks would have thought up on their own. At the time people understood loving your friends, and loving your family, but loving your enemy. That was radical.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
|
| Posted: 26 Sep 2007 20:42 |
|
|
|
Captain America
|
|
|
Quote:
Historically speaking a healthy fear of God has always been helpful in motivating men to do right especially if they had any sort of religious upbringing at all.
That's not true … or at least unprovable. I think most people are more motivated by fear of prison.
Quote:
You can't earn it by good works, just accept He paid the debt for our sins.
that's one of my biggest points of contention with Christianity: You can be a rat for a lifetime, but claiming Christ as your savior gets you into heaven. Good deeds are far more important.
Quote:
Jesus had radical ideas back in the day. Telling people to turn the other cheek, and love your enemies. That's not something most folks would have thought up on their own. At the time people understood loving your friends, and loving your family, but loving your enemy. That was radical.
He wasn't the only person back then, but, yes, it was radical (still is). I am with him. I don't think he's the son of god, and i don't believe he believed that, either.
|
| Posted: 27 Sep 2007 00:16 |
|
|
|
Administrator
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 4786
Join Date: Jul 2007
|
|
Quote:
That's not true … or at least unprovable. I think most people are more motivated by fear of prison. You really should listen to some old timers occassionally. They can tell you the way the world use to be like through eyes that actually were there.
Quote:
that's one of my biggest points of contention with Christianity: You can be a rat for a lifetime, but claiming Christ as your savior gets you into heaven. Good deeds are far more important.
Ahh, but the point is we are all rats. Just because you try to do good all your life doesn't make you any better than the next guy. "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God" Christ died for all of our sins. If being good did the trick then He wouldn't have had to die.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
|
| Posted: 27 Sep 2007 02:28 |
|
|
|
Registered User
|
Posts: 4725
Join Date: Aug 2007
|
We are motivated by two things in life aside from basic survival for ourselves and loved ones-the avoidance of pain and the gain of pleasure.
To be nice to others for no personal gain is a nice story but impossible. You see someone in pain and help out because you'll feel better if they're not in pain anymore or some level of pride for at least trying and avoiding feeling bad at having done nothing. For evangelicals it's a matter of pleasing God to please yourselves or avoiding a fiery afterlife. Realize that there are rules made to be broken and no such thing as an absolute.
Sorry if that's over-reaching a bit, but that's the real deal.
Survival, Pain, Pleasure.
Feel free to argue it, if it pleases you.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
|
| Posted: 27 Sep 2007 15:28 |
|
|
|
Administrator
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 4786
Join Date: Jul 2007
|
The reason you feel bad when you see someone hurt is because God gave us all a concience.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
|
| Posted: 27 Sep 2007 16:28 |
|
|
|
Registered User
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 1408
Join Date: Jul 2007
|
|
Quote:
and no such thing as an absolute.
Including that statement. Ok, I admit, that was a bit snarky.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
|
| Posted: 27 Sep 2007 18:00 |
|
|
|
Administrator
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 4786
Join Date: Jul 2007
|
Confusing isn't it?
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
|
|
it's getting old...but if romney's children don't serve that should not matter one bit.
i'm telling you the MOAB will solve all our problems
