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Political Discussion / Politics / Science / Creationism VS Evolution / Religion vs. atheism

Posted:  27 Sep 2007 21:26
A pointless debate, really. Some religious folk say no good can come without god and some atheists prove them wrong every day.

Good and evil exist whether you believe in a supreme deity or not. I have a conscience — which is pretty well developed — and it's not because of god.

I find blind subservience to anything grotesque. Christopher Hitchens (of whom I'm not a big fan) has (correctly) argued that the devotion to a being we are supposed to love and fear is the origin of totalitarianism. Why do you think ancient governments built so many temples? Opiate of the masses? More like the billy club of the rulers.

Now, Tim, before you start launching into some two-dimensional diatribe, though there's not enough time in the day to research every thing, I do look at arguments against my beliefs, so I can weigh them. You would be wise to do the same.

I've looked at the bible and found it wanting in many ways. It does have historical value (in both actual and literary contexts), but it is a highly flawed document (and, in many places, not very original: Many of these stories and themes were delved into before).

But at the end of the day, No argument — no matter how apparent, logical or footnoted — will convince a religious person of their chosen delusion.

Nor will a religious person convince an atheist that their papa-in-the-sky is real, because every argument at its core requires belief. So, it's a moot point.

As well, the America-is-a-Christian-nation shtick is off-base. Our founding fathers were Christians, but were products of the Enlightenment and believed in a secular government.

Jefferson wrote extensively on the separation of church and state. A hardcore deist, he believed in a natural god ("Nature's God," he called it), and even rewrote the gospels, so he could take the teachings of Jesus without all the voodoo.

[url)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible[/url)

James Madison (Father of the Constitution) also was another proponent of keeping the spiritual and the secular separate.

The revisionists who are trying to rewrite history — attributing to our founding fathers childish and fantastical religious and civic beliefs — are willfully ignorant and/or lying. The founding fathers  had complex and well-reasoned thoughts about religion, far from the bible thumpers the revisionists try to portray them as.

Some quotes:
Jefferson:

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.
-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789

I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789

They [the clergy) believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.
-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

The whole history of these books [the Gospels) is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814



James Madison:
Nothwithstanding the general progress made within the two last centuries in favour of this branch of liberty, & the full establishment of it, in some parts of our Country, there remains in others a strong bias towards the old error, that without some sort of alliance or coalition between Gov' & Religion neither can be duly supported: Such indeed is the tendency to such a coalition, and such its corrupting influence on both the parties, that the danger cannot be too carefully guarded agst.. And in a Gov' of opinion, like ours, the only effectual guard must be found in the soundness and stability of the general opinion on the subject. Every new & successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance. And I have no doubt that every new example, will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Gov will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together; [James Madison, Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822, The Writings of James Madison, Gaillard Hunt)


An alliance or coalition between Government and religion cannot be too carefully guarded against......Every new and successful example therefore of a PERFECT SEPARATION between ecclesiastical and civil matters is of importance........religion and government will exist in greater purity, without (rather) than with the aid of government. [James Madison in a letter to Livingston, 1822, from Leonard W. Levy- The Establishment Clause, Religion and the First Amendment,pg 124)


That diabolical, hell-conceived principle of persecution rages among some; and to their eternal infamy, the clergy can furnish their quota of impas for such business..." [James Madison, letter to William Bradford, Jr., Jauary 1774)


It was the belief of all sects at one time that the establishment of Religion by law, was right & necessary; that the true religion ought to be established in exclusion of every other; and that the only question to be decided was which was the true religion. The example of Holland proved that a toleration of sects, dissenting from the established sect, was safe & even useful. The example of the Colonies, now States, which rejected religious establishments altogether, proved that all Sects might be safely & advantageously put on a footing of equal & entire freedom.... We are teaching the world the great truth that Govts do better without Kings & Nobles than with them. The merit will be doubled by the other lesson that Religion flourishes in greater purity, without than with the aid of Gov. [James Madison, Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822, The Writings of James Madison, Gaillard Hunt)


[I)t may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the Civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency to unsurpastion on one side or the other, or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them, will be best guarded agst. by an entire abstinence of the Gov't from interfence in any way whatsoever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order, and protecting each sect agst. trespasses on its legal rights by others. [James Madison, in a letter to Rev Jasper Adams spring 1832, from James Madison on Religious Liberty, edited by Robert S. Alley, pp. 237-23


Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and corruption, all of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects. [James Madison, letter to William Bradford, Jr., Jauary 1774)


What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not. [Pres. James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance, addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia, 1785)


Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution. (James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance, addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia, 1785)


...Freedom arises from the multiplicity of sects, which prevades America and which is the best and only security for religious liberty in any society. For where there is such a variety of sects, there cannot be a majority of any one sect to oppress and persecute the rest. [James Madison, spoken at the Virginia convention on ratifying the Constitution, June 177


# It was the Universal opinion of the Century preceding the last, that Civil Government could not stand without the prop of a religious establishment; and that the Christian religion itself, would perish if not supported by the legal provision for its clergy. The experience of Virginia conspiciously corroboates the disproof of both opinions. The Civil Government, tho' bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability and performs its functions with complete success; whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the TOTAL SEPARATION OF THE CHURCH FROM THE STATE. [James Madison, as quoted in Robert L. Maddox: Separation of Church and State; Guarantor of Religious Freeedom)


George Washington:
# Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society. [George Washington, letter to Edward Newenham, October 20, 1792; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 726)


# There is nothing which can better deserve our patronage than the promotion of science and literature. Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness. [George Washington, address to Congress, 8 January, 1790)


# Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than thsoe which spring from any other cause. [George Washington, letter to Sir Edward Newenham, June 22, 1792)


# ...the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction. [George Washington, 1789, responding to clergy complaints that the Constitution lacked mention of Jesus Christ, from The Godless Constitution: The Case Against Religious Correctness, Isacc Kramnick and R. Laurence Moore W.W. Norton and Company 101-102)


# If they are good workmen, they may be from Asia, Africa or Europe; they may be Mahometans, Jews, Christians of any sect, or they may be Atheists.... [George Washington, to Tench Tighman, March 24, 1784, when asked what type of workman to get for Mount Vernon, from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover)


# To give opinions unsupported by reasons might appear dogmatical. [George Washington, to Alexander Spotswood, November 22, 1798, from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover)


# ...I beg you be persuaded that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution. [George Washington, to United Baptists Churches of Virginia, May, 1789 from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover)


# As the contempt of the religion of a country by ridiculing any of its ceremonies, or affronting its ministers or votaries, has ever been deeply resented, you are to be particularly careful to restrain every officer from such imprudence and folly, and to punish every instance of it. On the other hand, as far as lies in your power, you are to protect and support the free exercise of religion of the country, and the undisturbed enjoyment of the rights of conscience in religious matters, with your utmost influence and authority. [George Washington, to Benedict Arnold, September 14, 1775 from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover)


# The blessed Religion revealed in the word of God will remain an eternal and awful monument to prove that the best Institutions may be abused by human depravity; and that they may even, in some instances, be made subservient to the vilest of purposes.



Benjamin Franklin
"I think vital religion has always suffered when orthodoxy is more regarded than virtue. The scriptures assure me that at the last day we shall not be examined on what we thought but what we did." - letter to his father, 1738

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it." - from Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion, 1728

"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity." - Works, Vol. VII, p. 75


John Adams:
"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" - Dec. 27, 1816

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" - letter to Thomas Jefferson

"What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian era? Where are fifty gospels, condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope Gelasius? Where are the forty wagon-loads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in France, by order of another pope, because suspected of heresy? Remember the 'index expurgatorius', the inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter and the guillotine." - letter to John Taylor

"The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning. And ever since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes." - letter to John Taylor
Posted:  27 Sep 2007 21:51   Last Edited By: Tim
I'll check this out as time allows
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Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted:  27 Sep 2007 21:55   Last Edited By: Tim
Now wait a second you didn't get all those quotes from that one source, and I know you didn't memorize them all. So where did you get them, a atheists website?
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Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted:  27 Sep 2007 21:55
Most of them came from:
http://atheism.about.com

But of course you can find them across the Internet.

I read a bunch of them years ago and figured I'd share 'em.
Posted:  27 Sep 2007 21:57
Of course they came from an atheist site. I wouldn't doubt if they are half made up or more likely completely taken out of context. That's how this game is usually done. Take a paragraph here or there that suits you, and forget the fact the rest of the speech or article is completely in the opposite direction.
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Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted:  27 Sep 2007 21:59
No, they are well within context. But I'm sure you won't do any follow-up on them yourself.
Posted:  27 Sep 2007 22:03
I might, but you put a lot of junk out there at once. I've spent already a ton of time researching the founding fathers particularly the Christianity of George Washington our main early leader.
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Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted:  27 Sep 2007 22:04
I did include the names of the primary source material, as well, to make it easier.

Does it bother you that they had varied thoughts on religion? Does it bother you that the phrase "the separation of church and state" goes back our nation's founding?
Posted:  27 Sep 2007 22:10
The difference is that I never questioned whether they were Christians; I know that. You look for information that validates what you already believe. They can be godly men and ask questions, and want the civic and spiritual to be divided.
Posted:  27 Sep 2007 22:58
Here is the Library of Congress' transcript of Jefferson's letter to the Dansbury Baptists. I think you can glean what TJ thought about the separation of church and state.

http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danpost.html

James Madison's letter to Edward Livingstone, in which he decries Congress paying a chaplain to pray, saying that they should pay for it out of their pockets, not taxpayers. He goes on to say that when government and religion get cozy, it corrupts both. Again, from the Library of Congress.

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/mjmtext:@FIELD(DOCID+ ...

Also from the Library of Congress, a paper discussing role of religion in the Constitution:
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06.html

The separation of church and state isn't some revisionist crap from the 1950s. It was part of the thinking that went into the founding of our country.
Posted:  28 Sep 2007 01:02
To be fair, Tim, you've said our nation is based upon Christian beliefs.

Would you please list those beliefs that our country is based on?
__________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles

And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted:  28 Sep 2007 16:09
Quote:
Would you please list those beliefs that our country is based on?


All men are created equal.

GE 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

I don't have time to look up the exact places that would take forever, but God gave Moses and the children of Israel a lot of early ideas on the justice system like not convicting someone without at least two witnesses.

Of course we all know the 10 commandments which the laws of this nation were founded. No killing, stealing etc.


George Washington farewell address -
27 Of all the dispositions and habits, which lead to political prosperity, Religion and Morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and Citizens. The mere Politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connexions with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked, Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.

In other words Washington took my side of things when he said,"  Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle." He didn't believe morality could prevail in a nation without religion. Of course like history teaches, Washington was a Christian.


"Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice?" See Washington didn't feel like we had ground to stand on apart from God, in creating our system of freedom.
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Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted:  28 Sep 2007 16:26
Quote:
Religion and Morality are indispensable supports.


OK, he calls them supports. He doesn't say they are the system. They support it. Also, notice how he separates religion and morality. He understood that religion doesn't equal morality or vice-versa.

Quote:
Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.


Ah, he says religious principle. Again, he doesn't say religion itself, nor does he specify a specific religion. The principle of serving a higher power is a foundation of government, as well.

He also acknowledges that it isn't an absolute in all cases.

Again, he wasn't non-religious, but he acknowledged that all religions (and lack thereof) carried the same weight.
"If they are good workmen, they may be from Asia, Africa or Europe; they may be Mahometans, Jews, Christians of any sect, or they may be Atheists." - George Washington, to Tench Tighman, March 24, 1784, when asked what type of workman to get for Mount Vernon
Posted:  28 Sep 2007 16:36
Quote:
They support it. Also, notice how he separates religion and morality. He understood that religion doesn't equal morality or vice-versa.
No I think he's saying you can't have a moral society without religion.
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Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted:  28 Sep 2007 16:38
Quote:
No I think he's saying you can't have a moral society without religion.


But he doesn't say religion belongs in government, but in society.
Posted:  28 Sep 2007 16:58
Rather than retread these tired old arguements and  get into the quote vs quote debacle, tomorrow I'll be in the trenches, preaching on the streets to bunch of lowlifes like me, telling them that soemday they will stand before a holy and righteous God who hates sin and punishes sin, but that Jesus Christ died on the cross of Calvary to pay the penalty for their sins so that they can have eternal life. A much more productive use of the few years I have left, I think.
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1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Posted:  28 Sep 2007 21:34
Go for it Preacher man. Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel.
__________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted:  29 Sep 2007 02:18
This just in, from:
http://www.virginiaplaces.org/religion/religiongw.html

Quote:
Washington gives us little in his writings to indicate his personal religious beliefs. As noted by Franklin Steiner in "The Religious Beliefs Of Our Presidents" (1936), Washington commented on sermons only twice. In his writings, he never referred to "Jesus Christ." He attended church rarely, and did not take communion - though Martha did, requiring the family carriage to return back to the church to get her later.

When trying to arrange for workmen in 1784 at Mount Vernon, Washington made clear that he would accept "Mohometans, Jews or Christians of any Sect, or they may be Atheists." Washington wrote Lafayette in 1787, "Being no bigot myself, I am disposed to indulge the professors of Christianity in the church that road to heaven which to them shall seem the most direct, plainest, easiest and least liable to exception."

Clear evidence of his personal theology is lacking, even on his deathbed when he died a "death of civility" without expressions of Christian hope. His failure to document beliefs in conventional dogma, such as a life after death, is a clue that he may not qualify as a conventional Christian. Instead, Washington may be closer to a "warm deist" than a standard Anglican in colonial Virginia.

He was complimentary to all groups and attended Quaker, German Reformed, and Roman Catholic services. In a world where religious differences often led to war, Washington was quite conscious of religious prejudice. However, he joked about it rather than exacerbated it. Washington once noted that he was unlikely to be affected by the German Reformed service he attended, because he did not understand a word of what was spoken.

Washington was an inclusive, "big tent" political leader seeking support from the large numbers of Anglicans, Baptists, Presbyterians, and Quakers in Virginia, and even more groups on a national level. He did not enhance his standing in some areas by advocating support for a particular theology, and certainly did not identify "wedge issues" based on religious differences. Instead, in late 1775, Washington banned the Protestant celebration of the Pope's Day (a traditional mocking of the Catholic leader) by the Continental Army. He deplored the sectarian strife in Ireland, and wished the debate over Patrick Henry's General Assessment bill would "die an easy death."

Washington was not anti-religion. Washington was not uninterested in religion. He was a military commander who struggled to motivate raw troops in the French and Indian War. He recognized that recruiting the militia in the western part of Virginia required accommodating the Scotch-Irish Presbyterians, Baptists, and Dutch Reformed members in officially-Anglican Virginia. He was aware that religious beliefs were a fundamental part of the lives of his peers and of his soldiers. He knew that a moral basis for the American Revolution and the creation of a new society would motivate Americans to support his initiatives - and he knew that he would receive more support if he avoided discriminating against specific religious beliefs

__________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles

And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted:  29 Sep 2007 02:33
Something else just struck me as well. I find it odd you have such a distaste for evolution theory but no problem whatsoever with being formed from dirt(keeping in mind that without evolving we would still be comprised of dirt).
__________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles

And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted:  29 Sep 2007 19:42
Just in alright, just fabricated most likely. For every atheistic view or history rewriter out there you'll find lots of writings to the contrary of your position on our founding fathers.

George Washington was a regular church goer from everything I've ever read.  At the time of the Revolution, the Anglican Church to which Washington belonged clearly affirmed the authority of the Bible, Jesus' death for sinners, and His ressurection from the dead. Not only did he attend church, but he also worked in the church at a time when just attending church was most difficult thanks to the lack of paved roads and the conditions of early America. It wasn't like today when all you had to do was jump in the car and go. In fact traveling anywhere for long could be treacherous back then, especially after a good rain storm.

It's been said that Washington was a reserved man, and did not wear his faith on his sleeve, but that does not mean he was not a proud Christian.

As a young man he kept a lengthy prayer journal found in the 1890's and authenticated by handwriting specialist. Some of those writings includes these words. " O most Glorious God, in Jesus Christ my merciful and loving Father, I acknowledge and confess my guilt, in the weak and imperfect performance of the duties of this day. I have called on Thee for pardon and forgiveness of sins...Let me live according to those holy rules which Thou has this day prescribed in Thy holy word.
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Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted:  29 Sep 2007 19:44
Quote:
Something else just struck me as well. I find it odd you have such a distaste for evolution theory but no problem whatsoever with being formed from dirt(keeping in mind that without evolving we would still be comprised of dirt).
The Bible also says we were formed in the image of God, a much more likeable situation than being kin to a monkey I assure you.
__________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted:  30 Sep 2007 01:59
Quote:
George Washington was a regular church goer from everything I've ever read.

That would make sense given to what you exclusively read. Find some evidence from a nonbiased historically based source, elsewise, George Washington was not a Christian based solely on your religious manifesto(s).

Quote:
The Bible also says we were formed in the image of God, a much more likeable situation than being kin to a monkey I assure you.

So God is made of dirt?
Stop rerouting what was said to make some other point, not that is was vindicating you to begin with.
Why is it easier to say you're created from dirt than to accept a shared relation with another primate?
__________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles

And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted:  30 Sep 2007 19:38
Quote:
That would make sense given to what you exclusively read.
Well I do a lot of reading not from atheistic sites of course, and I also have done a lot of watching historical documentaries for that matter.

As to you other question, I personally rather be from dirt than look like a monkey.
__________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted:  01 Oct 2007 00:41
Quote:
I personally rather be from dirt than look like a monkey.



__________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles

And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles