|
|
| Posted: 30 Sep 2007 22:06 |
|
|
|
Registered User
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 247
Join Date: Aug 2007
|
A couple of years ago, the NYTimes realized its editorial section was the most fun part of the paper and decided to start charging for online views.
This was a drag and I didn't pay it. Consequently, I lost out on the insights of one Thomas L. Friedman, who I don't always agree with, but who is a very insightful columnist.
But about a week or so ago, the Times gave up on this failed experiment, and now I don't have to read the less interesting (but often more substantive, aside from Friedman) columnists in the Washington Post.
Here's a good one Friedman wrote this week.
Opinions?
|
| Posted: 01 Oct 2007 00:43 |
|
|
Registered User
|
Posts: 4725
Join Date: Aug 2007
|
That goes side by side with the Giuliani dinner plates for $9.11 reported elsewhere on this site.
Will have to remember this:
Quote:
“Give me your tired, your poor and your fingerprints.”
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
|
| Posted: 01 Oct 2007 02:16 |
|
|
Registered User
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 1408
Join Date: Jul 2007
|
During WWII, would Mr. Friedman be calling for the President to be a "December 8th, 1941" President?
Mr. Friedman, though he makes some valid points about some areas of overreaction in our country, is displaying a very American characteristic of disregarding the past and assuming that the bad guys are deep down, just like us.
I remember the last time I was in Oman, I was talking to an older gentleman and I was , with my horrid Arabic, trying to talk about the castles that are carved into the sides of the mountains by the shore. He finally grew tied of my Arabic and switched to English, telling me that those castles had been there "since the 40's". I found out later that he meant the 1640's. As an American, I have a hard time thinking like that, since I am a product of the 'it's old let's pave over it and throw up a Starbucks' culture.
But as one of my preaching heroes says "The one thing you learn from history is that men never learn anything from history".
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
|
| Posted: 01 Oct 2007 04:34 |
|
|
|
Registered User
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 247
Join Date: Aug 2007
|
|
Quote:
During WWII, would Mr. Friedman be calling for the President to be a "December 8th, 1941" President?
Sure. At some point, we had to move past things like Japanese interment camps, which history has found to be a mistake anyway.
No one is saying don't fight Al Qaeda, but after initial mistakes made of passion, and there have been a few, we must get our heads together to preserve what is American about this country. It is unamerican to keep a prison camp without trials. If they're guilty- put them on trial and determine that, then act accordingly.
Friedman's right. 9/11 HAS made us dumb. The argument you've eloquently been making against the surrender of our civil liberties is up against 9/11 scaremongering. Plenty of people here are willing to just give up everything that has made this country great, because they're afraid of Bin Laden. That isn't the country I want to live in. I'd rather take my chances in a 9/12 America and I know you would too.
If the culture you're referencing has a long memory then that is all the more reason to act with a sense of justice. We will never bomb or shoot our way out of this war. We can only win by making al Qaeda look like the lunatics they are. Yes, we have to fight, but we also have to show the world what is good about America, and we haven't been doing that lately.
|
| Posted: 01 Oct 2007 14:06 |
|
|
|
Registered User
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 1408
Join Date: Jul 2007
|
In the article he also tries to make some sort of link between a decline in American tourism and unhappiness with American foreign policy. I think that is a hard case to make and an even harder case to prove that it's happening on a wide scale. I don't think people on a wide scale say "I hate Msr Bush, so therefore I will not go see the Grand Canyon!"France elected socialists for decades and that doesn't stop me from wanting to go see the Louvre.
Now, Mr. Friedman may have a point in that some of our more draconian security measure may dissuade people ( I personally would rather be beaten with a stick than fly nowadays) but so do big smoking craters where your cities used to be. And if security measures ran people off, nobody would ever visit Israel. What has caused a downturn in Israeli tourism isn't the security, but rather the chance that a RPG can come flying through your hotel window at any moment.
One of the mistakes I think our country has made is the mentality that everybody needs to be scrutinized because after all, we don't know who the bad guys are. But the exact opposite is true. We know EXACTLY who the bad guys are.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
|
| Posted: 02 Oct 2007 06:17 |
|
|
|
Registered User
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 247
Join Date: Aug 2007
|
|
Quote:
I don't think people on a wide scale say "I hate Msr Bush, so therefore I will not go see the Grand Canyon! Don't be so sure. Tourism is only a small piece of the world's investment in our culture- which I think is what Friedman was getting at.
In 2004, the mantra was often "so what if the world thinks we're wrong? Screw the world!" Our culture went on this weird detour of Freedom Fries and the rest of the world started to think we'd lost it.
This comes back to haunt us as a nation in many, many ways that are a bigger deal than tourism. The first is our currency's value has dropped off the map. Now I know the logic that suddenly, everyone will want to buy what we're selling because it is, in a sense, cheaper- but we don't make anything here but movies and software. As Friedman just pointed out- some of those people are leaving as well.
Now as separation of Iraq into federal zones is again on the table, we're going to need some help managing this task. We're all surged out. Who can we turn to? Noooooooobody. Iran and Saudi Arabia are the only countries that ever seem to want to assist anybody in Iraq.
As far as us knowing exactly who the bad guys are- i think I get what you're saying- but thats just the problem: we don't.
Now I know that young muslim men are the stereotype we're looking for. I get that. But of 19 hijackers, how many were Iraqi? Yet, we're in Iraq. I have Indian friends who are still not over being called a terrorist 4 years ago. Agreed, that we have a rough idea of who the bad guys would be- and there is some wisdom in keeping an eye out for anything suspicious from certain groups- thats sad, but it is life.
That said, I honestly don't think Americans have enough of a world education to get that equation right most of the time. Sorry, America, I love ya- but you have no sense of geography. I extend this derogatory statement to the highest levels of our government.
Additionally, while we discourage Islamists from yesterday's news in terror attacks by trying something that blurs the lines of racial profiling, a Timothy McViegh walks right past our guards. When we teach our people to look for one thing- thats what they do. Part of the reason for 9/11 was a failure to think outside the box. People shouldn't be trained to look for one problem only- not when it comes to any aspect of getting a plane off the ground.
Israel is an entirely different animal with regard to security. The attacks and their motivations are very different. One reason we can't rely on them like a caged canary to tell us when the air is poisoned is because they deal with an entirely different form of terrorism, with normally very different enemies.
In short- they bulldoze an olive grove and someone related to the former owners is blowing up a bus the next week. We put troops in Saudi Arabia in 91 and we start seeing gradual big targets against critical infrastructure every two years, culminating in a giant attack designed for political influence. One is a series of battles, essentially over an segregation style intractable situation. The other is calculated strategy designed to get a super power to attack itself.
Israel also has a very different way of handling it- some of which I think needs to be used in training over here- some of which they can keep. I think the fact that their entire country can mobilize for a war in an afternoon is amazing- and would help us deal with all sort of problems, especially organization of resources and communication. But fo years, Israel thought in terms of having "an enemy" instead of a problem. Because of that, now that they're changing, the enemy is still thinking of itself as "they enemy" and will for some time to come.
Of course, we're not looking to befriend al Qaeda, but there are a lot more people there that we can't afford to have sign up. When a white man from Texas looks at the Middle East and says "you're either with us or against us"- they racially profile as well. And like you said before- they have long memories.
|
| Posted: 02 Oct 2007 15:30 |
|
|
|
Registered User
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 1408
Join Date: Jul 2007
|
|
Quote:
But of 19 hijackers, how many were Iraqi? I agree with you in principle, though my position on Iraq is pretty well known. I definitely think we should have taken a harder look at Saudi Arabia after 9/11. I remeber being there in 1996 and interacting with the peoeple and the dislike of Americans being a very real, palpable thing.
Quote:
In short- they bulldoze an olive grove and someone related to the former owners is blowing up a bus the next week. We put troops in Saudi Arabia in 91 and we start seeing gradual big targets against critical infrastructure every two years, culminating in a giant attack designed for political influence. One is a series of battles, essentially over an segregation style intractable situation. The other is calculated strategy designed to get a super power to attack itself. I tell you, Danny, out of all the people here and at the other site that I regularly disagree with, you are one of the most insightful. This is an interesting way of looking at it, I'll have to chew on that for awhile.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
|
| Posted: 02 Oct 2007 15:35 |
|
|
|
Registered User
|
Posts: 4725
Join Date: Aug 2007
|
Danny, you have the respect and admiration of everyone here-tell the rest of us what that's like.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
|
| Posted: 02 Oct 2007 16:51 |
|
|
|
Registered User
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 247
Join Date: Aug 2007
|
Thanks fellas. I put a lot of work into avoiding work so I can "rap" with you guys about world events.
Seriously Preach, thanks for the vote of confidence- back at 'cha.
And Pak, though I'm sure you have many good postings ahead of you- you have already climbed the highest mountain of the political internet.
Tim called you the Batman of the Democratic Party.
|
| Posted: 02 Oct 2007 18:56 |
|
|
|
Registered User
|
Posts: 4725
Join Date: Aug 2007
|
I love Batman, and would have been honored, but that title he bestowed on someone else.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
|
| Posted: 02 Oct 2007 22:16 |
|
|
|
Registered User
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 247
Join Date: Aug 2007
|
For real? Who was that?
Who was that masked man??!!
Either way Pak, you're still good people. You're at least as cool as Green Lantern- but with Green Arrow political instincts.
Though somewhat confusing, that is a compliment.
|
| Posted: 02 Oct 2007 22:46 |
|
|
Administrator
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 4786
Join Date: Jul 2007
|
Just call me the Lone Ranger.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
|
| Posted: 02 Oct 2007 22:55 |
|
|
|
Captain America
|
|
From the "Hollywood Liberalism" post:
Posted: 26 Sep 2007 13:52
Captain America
He wasn't going after the the terrorists who attacked us. In fact, he stalled our efforts in Afghanistan by going into Iraq.
Frankly, that whole diatribe was moronic, whiney and devoid of facts about 9/11, the war on terror and Iraq.
My favorite bit:
Quote:
Mike Farrell and Janeane Garofalo went on Hannity and Colmes and said that we should let the inspectors do their jobs. Why can’t they let President Bush do his?
Well, Bush didn't let them do finish their job, and when they reported again and again that Saddam didn't have WMDs, Bush dismissed their findings. Of course, they were right.
Plus, the whole thing has this guy telling people with whom he and Bush disagree to shut up. Not big on free speech, is he?
But Bushies are a superstitious and cowardly lot, at the end of the day.
__________________
Tim
Quote:
But Bushies are a superstitious and cowardly lot, at the end of the day.
Such a sweet loving disposition you have. What are you the Batman of the Democratic party?
There you have, Danny: I'm Batman
|
| Posted: 02 Oct 2007 23:00 |
|
|
|
Captain America
|
|
Speaking of GL, I just won on eBay GL #59, the first appearance of Guy Gardner.
I'm sure Tim long ago banned Green Arrow from his forums.
|
| Posted: 02 Oct 2007 23:07 |
|
|
|
Registered User
|
Posts: 4725
Join Date: Aug 2007
|
I'm sure there's an interesting story there.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
|
|
