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| Posted: 18 Oct 2007 00:33 |
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You know pak, danny, you, or the most brilliant scientist in the world can't answer my questions, and I can only assume that evolution is a big waste of time.
Like Cap said- if you don't WANT to know anything new, or you don't WANT to be intellectually honest then yeah, its a waste of your time. (And ours for attempting to convince you...)
Once again Tim, that is the point of science- when you don't know something- you just say so. To invent an answer is saying "Presto! Magic!".
I'm looking for a rational answer to questions of where I came from. Evolution is the best I've seen so far. It isn't my religion, because if its proven wrong- I can just ditch it. I'm not interested in magic for learning where I came from, especially if other people say the same thing with a different name on it. Cool?
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| Posted: 18 Oct 2007 00:39 |
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I just proved it wrong with my questions. It's impossible. zero equals zero. Why don't you get that? It's over. You can't answer the question how you can start with absolutely nothing, and neither can any other evolutionists. The little fact that presumably at the beginning of everything there would be absolutely nothing to work with to even begin a creation process of any kind is conveniently left out of all the discussions I've ever heard of evolution. They always go right into the big bang and completely skip that whole part. Don't you find that a little convenient that it doesn't even get a mention?
The only question that's left for me is how this amazingly stupid gimmick called evolution still has any followers?
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 18 Oct 2007 02:30 Last Edited By: Danny |
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Tim, you haven't proven anything. Again, science doesn't claim to have all the answers- just that it will study the questions in a rational way. When you bring in magic- it ain't science.
There's no conspiracy to avoid "where did stuff come from", its just an ongoing question that so far can't be measured. I'm sure there are plenty of theories out there- but they don't just make something up, because its science- saying one doesn't know is okay.
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| Posted: 18 Oct 2007 03:20 |
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Do you really believe any of those videos even come close to answering my questions?
Yes. Watch them. Take a deep breath and try some new questions.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 18 Oct 2007 16:44 Last Edited By: Tim |
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Guys let's take it one more time from the top. Let's go way back way way back to the beginning of everything. There's nothing there. There's no atmosphere, no atoms, no molecules, no dust, no anything. It's zero nothingness, alright.
Total blackness and emptiness. Got that picture in your mind? Ok
Now how do you create a big bang with absolutely nothing at all? I'm not asking anything that hard really. I mean come on guys. What's the answer? Anybody who knows evolution as well as you guys should be able to answer this one quite readily I'd assume. Cause if you can't you might as well tell me you can build a house without a foundation. You ever see a rooftop floating around without a house underneath it?
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Take a deep breath and try some new questions. Nope, not till you at least try to answer the above big bang question.
I'm not trying to be difficult. I just want you all to come to terms with the reality of the situation here. You know stretch your imagination a bit, and work on those detective skills.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 18 Oct 2007 18:03 |
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Captain America
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Where did god come from?
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| Posted: 18 Oct 2007 20:26 |
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I like how you guys think. First you want to stick to science till scientific thought and reason debunks evolution. Then you go back to trying to attack God's existence.
See you have the greater burden of proof because evolution currently commands the nation's schools. Our schools are teaching something that has no merit whatsoever, and I'm sure you know that by now.
As far as where God come from. That's the part where you need to put your philosophical thinking cap on. I believe I've already given you an answer in a sense. Of course we don't know where God came from but from studying the Bible we understand that God is infinite. He was there at creation. The Bible never says God began. He simply was. Now don't presume that this puts me in the same boat as you. For my whole point in this discussion is that in order to explain creation, we have to trace the beginning to a power that is beyond our ability to understand it. God is beyond us. The only reasonable yet difficult conclusion one can come to is that the beginning source of everything must be infinite without beginning.
Think about that carefully now. Ok. That's my whole argument in a nutshell. There is no way to ever explain the beginning of the universe apart from an Almighty God. There just isn't. In order for all to exist there must be a beginning source that was always here.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 18 Oct 2007 20:43 |
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Captain America
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He simply was.
Maybe the universe was, too.
You haven't proven anything. You've espoused your medieval philosophy again. And again. And again.
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There is no way to ever explain the beginning of the universe apart from an Almighty God. There just isn't. In order for all to exist there must be a beginning source that was always here.
Yes, there is. We just don't know it yet. Again, that limited view you mentioned.
And by the way, evolution and the creation of the universe are not the same thing. Evolution involves the development of life on earth. The origin of the universe is something different.
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See you have the greater burden of proof because evolution currently commands the nation's schools.
Um, no, because the only source for the creation story is the old testament. There is proof of evolution and that the earth is millions and millions of years old that covers the entire globe. Anyone who thinks the earth is 6,000-10,000 years old is a moron.
That's the last I'll say on that. You don't want to know whether evolution has merit and (whether consciously or not) are intellectually dishonest or cowardly. And bad on us for trying to engage you on this subject.
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| Posted: 18 Oct 2007 21:04 |
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Bad for you for not being honest and answering my question. All you know how to do is play games and make insults. I'm trying my best not to respond in a similiar fashion. Just pretending like you know it all doesn't mean anything. It's time you actually engaged into the conversation and did some thinking.
I mean come on does it make someone more intelligent for just nodding your head in agreement with evolutionists. Ask yourself the tough questions before you judge me for bothering to think.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 18 Oct 2007 21:06 |
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And by the way, evolution and the creation of the universe are not the same thing. Big bang, evolution all the same crap. It doesn't work and you'd see that if you bothered to think through it for half a second. I don't assume you are that stupid really. I know you know I'm right. You just don't want to let me know, you know I'm right. Too much fun to argue I guess isn't it?
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 18 Oct 2007 21:26 |
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Captain America
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All you know how to do is play games and make insults.
There have been plenty of factual responses from me and others. You choose to ignore them or you don't understand them. No joke. I've pondered creation and found it wanting.
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Just pretending like you know it all doesn't mean anything.
I don't claim to know it all. But I am interested in searching. You rely on the bible and sources that use the bible as a source.
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It's time you actually engaged into the conversation and did some thinking.
I've done a fair amount of joking and slinging insults, but that's usually after I've repeated myself multiple times and watch as you gloss past posts that answer the very questions you keep asking, over and over and over and over and over.
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Big bang, evolution all the same crap.
No, two different things, really.
But, again, I don't want to argue this point, because neither of us are going to change are opinions. Issues of the day, however … Oh, wait, anything that challenges your beliefs … not good … must shut down … post stupid video … where is Kirk Cameron …     … help me …
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| Posted: 19 Oct 2007 01:03 |
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Tim, either talk evolution or talk the creation of the universe. They are not interchangable just because you don't agree with either of them.
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tell me you can build a house without a foundation.
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The Bible never says God began. He simply was
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Let's go way back way way back to the beginning of everything. There's nothing there. There's no atmosphere, no atoms, no molecules, no dust, no anything. It's zero nothingness, alright.
Nobody knows, absolutely nobody knows. That argument is nothingness. Alright.
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Ask yourself the tough questions before you judge me for bothering to think.
WATCH THE PRIMER. Please.
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I just want you all to come to terms with the reality of the situation here. You know stretch your imagination a bit, and work on those detective skills.
We don't know the reality of the creation of the universe. All you offer is one line of text that says 'God did it'. By this line of text you absolutely refuse to let science have any say in it(as far as I can tell) when it wouldn't affect that ancient edict one way or the other, except for the nifty little compartment you've stuck it in. Imagination does not change reality all by itself either. Try using those detective skills you mention and answer some tough questions yourself.
>Where is the science in the book of Genesis?
>Why couldn't God have created the big bang?
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The word ironic keeps showing itself today...watch this.
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Just pretending like you know it all doesn't mean anything.
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I know you know I'm right. You just don't want to let me know, you know I'm right
You might want to avoid drinking before you post. It's amusing but I'm starting to worry about you.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 19 Oct 2007 19:40 |
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Dudes for all that yacking you still can't answer how you can start at the beginning with absolutely no matter, no air, no atoms, no nothing, and end up with a big bang.
Then go from a big bang to planets and that pesky one-celled organism that began life was we know it.
You are so stuck on proving God doesn't exist, you can't even see the theories you have are worthless.
Pak have any of the videos you posted ever even addressed my questions? No! Don't you think it would at least be addressed if the evolutionists really were seeking answers.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 20 Oct 2007 03:16 |
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Pak have any of the videos you posted ever even addressed my questions
No. They were doing the topic of evolution and stayed on the topic of evolution unlike your questions which go in several directions because of a lazy filing system you have for ideas. You still have no idea what you are so dead set against and yet you're so sure it's off because that was the response you were told to have. Please don't call yourself a rebel anymore as your actions don't support the title.
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how you can start at the beginning with absolutely no matter, no air, no atoms, no nothing
Fiction?
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You are so stuck on proving God doesn't exist,
I really hope that wasn't directed at me as I've done no such thing, ever. Time and again: I don't know if there is one, I don't need there to be one, I don't want you selling me yours. That's it.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 20 Oct 2007 15:08 |
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The word Fiction is the closest you've gotten to actually addressing my question. Now do you care to expand on that?
Every natural thing in our known universe has a beginning. Is it not true then that at the very beginning of everything there would be absolutely nothing at all?
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 21 Oct 2007 00:37 |
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Fiction would mean someone made that up.
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Every natural thing in our known universe has a beginning. Is it not true then that at the very beginning of everything there would be absolutely nothing at all?
Everything IN the universe has a beginning? Probably, almost definitely.
Who says the universe itself had a beginning? On your side of things you have the book of Genesis and at the other other end of the table you've made the Big Bang your opponent. They both might be true or neither might be true.
How about you actually make some sort of point yourself or answer the points that have been made by others than yourself?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 21 Oct 2007 18:43 |
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How about you actually make some sort of point yourself or answer the points that have been made by others than yourself? I think I've made my point pretty clear. In order for a big bang or evolutionary process to exist you would have to have pre-existant materials already present which is impossible from a scientific view point. I'm not sure why you are having difficulty at least admitting this simple point.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 22 Oct 2007 01:05 |
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I'm not sure why you are having difficulty at least admitting this simple point.
It's only an assumption on your part(jumbling together multiple topics, no less), with nothing for me to 'admit' to.
The big bang is not the same as evolution. They are only remotely related under the topic of science. Pick one.
Nobody knows what was here before that big bang, or what exactly made it occur. There are several theories but no definite answers. At least science attempts to understand it somehow instead of prescribing it lazily to a deity.
Maybe you missed this, so I'll post it again.
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We don't know the reality of the creation of the universe. All you offer is one line of text that says 'God did it'. By this line of text you absolutely refuse to let science have any say in it(as far as I can tell) when it wouldn't affect that ancient edict one way or the other, except for the nifty little compartment you've stuck it in. Imagination does not change reality all by itself either. Try using those detective skills you mention and answer some tough questions yourself.
>Where is the science in the book of Genesis?
>Why couldn't God have created the big bang?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 22 Oct 2007 15:32 |
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So are you suggesting then that God had a hand in creating the big bang?
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At least science attempts to understand it somehow instead of prescribing it lazily to a deity. Actually I thought that I was really working pretty hard to visualize the very beginning of every thing.
I come to the conclusion that it points to God, but if you don't then you have to come to terms with the enormous question of where did the universe come from.
All things have a beginning according to science. You are resting on science so therefore you have to make your conclusions based on scientific laws. Considering that. How could there be a big bang? Look forget about personal feelings here. It has to be one of those questions that makes you go hmmm, right?
Obviously the big bang and evolution are not enough to explain how the universe got here, and whether or not scientists mean well or not isn't the point. The theories don't work on a very basic level. I find it troubling that scientists seem to get angry and have extreme prejudice toward any other scientists that don't happily jump on the evolution band wagon. It's pure politics. You want to work and get recognition, better not say anything bad about the monkey theory or else get mocked and ostracized from the scientific community. Makes it hard to work on other theories that way, I'd say. Politics effects everybody, even scientists.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 22 Oct 2007 17:42 |
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So are you suggesting then that God had a hand in creating the big bang?
Suggested a long time ago that you could try to embrace the possibility of including the big bang in your belief structure. You posted a three stooges video or some other avoidance.
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All things have a beginning according to science
Matter cannont be created or destroyed according to science. Your version has everything just popping up out of nothingness, which is not remotely near any theory dealing with the big bang. Matter of fact, only place that happens is the book of Genesis. Read up on or watch a video about or just find some way to get informed about what those theories are. I'm not wasting my time posting anything for you specifically anymore.
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Obviously the big bang and evolution are not enough to explain how the universe got here
Idiot...how many times do you need to see this before it sinks in?.....evolution has nothing to do with the creation of the universe.
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The theories don't work on a very basic level
Not knowing what they are helps them not work, right?
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You want to work and get recognition, better not say anything bad about the monkey theory or else get mocked and ostracized from the scientific community.
First off, see my above response about evolution not being involved in creation of the universe. Secondly, a scientist can go against evolution theory(they do it all the time) if they know what those theories are and have an actual argument instead of uninformed, jumbled crap like what you've been posting. A scientist that stands in front of any of his colleagues and states he knows something, without anything to back it up, deserves to be mocked. 'A book told me' isn't a scientific breakthrough.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 22 Oct 2007 18:02 Last Edited By: Tim |
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Suggested a long time ago that you could try to embrace the possibility of including the big bang in your belief structure. I thought about it. Ran it through my mind and found a huge hole there. Is that not good enough? Taking religion out of the equation I still couldn't possibly accept a scientific theory without a reliable foundation. Why are you seemingly against logical reasoning in your theories? Is there no room for common sense in scientific theory? I don't mean it in a bad way. I just don't know the right words to express what I'm trying to say here. You can't have a bang without dynamite, or some other explosive material. You got to have oxygen, gas, matter, something to begin with. It's simple logic.
Not to mention the idea that an explosion could be a catalyst for order. I've never seen an explosion create anything but a mess.
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Matter cannont be created or destroyed according to science. So are you trying to tell me that matter has just always been. Wouldn't that put it on a supernatural level like God? So if a person could travel back in time, no matter how far they could go there would always be matter? Doesn't sound realistic.
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Idiot...how many times do you need to see this before it sinks in?..... You know you and Cap love to start the name calling when you don't know how else to prove your point. Maybe you should come down off of your high horse for just a moment and think this thing through. If science is about asking questions and continously exploring then why do evolutionists get so abusive when folks don't envision the past as they do? Not a great atmosphere for encouraging thought.
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A scientist that stands in front of any of his colleagues and states he knows something, without anything to back it up, deserves to be mocked. 'A book told me' isn't a scientific breakthrough.
You make a lot of assumptions about creationist don't you.
And I'm quite aware that the big bang is about making planets, and evolution is about the one celled organism evolving into monkeys and what not. They are both part of the same ideology. Most people likely do not see that big of a difference between the two. It's like the difference between liberals and socialists.
You really should watch that temper dude. I've learned the hard way with CA that responded to that kind of thing in kind just goes in a never ending circle.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 22 Oct 2007 18:16 |
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Captain America
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You know you and Cap love to start the name calling when you don't know how else to prove your point.
I start using the names when A) I've made a point that you keep glossing over or ignoring, then asking me a question I answered in the aforementioned point. And B) when you start in.
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You really should watch that temper dude. I've learned the hard way with CA that responded to that kind of thing in kind just goes in a never ending circle.
Nah, the circle ended when you bravely edited out my posts after altering one of yours. Don't play like I just randomly unloaded, you went personal and then realized you out of your depth.
I think pak's earlier point was that the big bang can be part of your beliefs (something I mentioned months ago), ie that God could've made the big bang. Many people of faith adopt that view. Of course, they are considered moderates, which you are not.
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| Posted: 22 Oct 2007 19:54 |
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You've actually found a link between faith and science Tim. Neither one uses, obeys, adds to, detracts from or even cares about 'common sense'.
As for the name calling, you deserved it or I wouldn't have posted it. Stop throwing ides together as the same thing just because you don't understand them and don't approve of them, and I won;t call you an idiot again.
Atheist is not the same as Communist, Religion does not go hand in hand with politics, and evolution has nothing to do with the big bang.
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You can't have a bang without dynamite, or some other explosive material
This is still a rule IN this universe, not necessarily OF this universe.
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an explosion could be a catalyst for order
Who says it can't?
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So if a person could travel back in time, no matter how far they could go there would always be matter? Doesn't sound realistic.
It sure doesn't. Time travel is another fantasy(at least for the time being).
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You really should watch that temper dude.
You haven't seen my temper.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 22 Oct 2007 19:58 |
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And B) when you start in.
I never start in at the level you aspire to. You get going at the drop of a hat.
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Nah, the circle ended when you bravely edited out my posts after altering one of yours. I told you I did that before I mentioned the family thing. Look the only reason I didn't ban you outright was my tendency to try and give people the benefit of the doubt. Had you said something of that nature in the presence of my wife..well let's just I would taught you a lesson in manners the hard way. Never ever mistake my patience and understanding with weakness. I don't want to sink to that level of disgusting rhetoric for the good of the site, and two it's pointless. The only reason you saw it the way you did anyway was because you've got a dirty mind. Now don't get it started again. Just drop it, and focus on the subject at hand alright. I'd like to think we can all rise above the back and forth crap and focus on the meat and potatoes of the discussion.
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something I mentioned months ago), ie that God could've made the big bang. Many people of faith adopt that view. Of course, they are considered moderates, which you are not. Moderate, liberal, what's the difference? I go where the facts lead. Right and wrong are not subjective.
If you have a idea of how to explain the big bang against my arguments then please by all means present it, or of course you could resort back to name calling. That will show me how wrong I am won't it? At least that's what you seem to think at any rate.
Please remember this. What would the point of a debate site be if we could not present our true beliefs? If I were to simply tell you what you want to hear there would be no need for this site. We debate not for the sake of argument however, but for the sake of greater knowledge and learning.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 22 Oct 2007 20:18 |
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Captain America
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First off, I thought we had finished it on Friday, but you brought it up again by disparaging me out of context.
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ad you said something of that nature in the presence of my wife..well let's just I would taught you a lesson in manners the hard way.
Sure, Tim. Sure. Perhaps you need to check your own tendency to name-call. Really, I don't care, but you can't take as well as you give. It's like the mental equivalent of the glass jaw.
OK? Done. I don't want to venture back into territory I've already covered, though almost all of these "debates" with you requires endless repetition just to get you to acknowledge a point.
But, if you continue to bring it up, then we can wade back into it. And if I say something that gets me banned? Oh well … a coward's forum is not one for me anyway.
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Right and wrong are not subjective.
But what you claim as right comes from one source, the bible, which isn't the most reliable source of science and history. It definitely has components of the latter, but very little in way of the former. You don't believe that - and believe it is the unedited word of god - and therein lies the end of the debate.
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| Posted: 22 Oct 2007 20:31 |
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First of all if I call you a name it's usually in relation to your politics like hippie for your liberalism etc. I don't use perverted language.
As far as the Bible. Yes, I believe it's the Word of God. Yes, I believe everything in the Bible. I am not ashamed to say so, but the focus again I've tried to get here is on the fact that at the beginning of everything from a scientific viewpoint there would be no matter, air, atoms, gases, etc to ignite a big bang. That's not in the Bible, that's just using commone sense. Respond to that why don't you.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 22 Oct 2007 20:36 |
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Captain America
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I have responded to that (several times) and said I'm not sure and that I don't think that it is what is described in the bible. I believe it is something we have no idea about. The bible tries to fill that void, and it uses a story very similar to the one that the Mesopotamians (as well as some other ancient peoples, using their own gods) told.
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| Posted: 22 Oct 2007 20:53 |
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A void is not the word for it. If scientists are to be honest with the whole big bang theory they should at least mention the problem they have in their theory, don't you think?
The void is so large here it totally negates any possibility of a big bang or evolution occurring at all.
And why do evolutionists give creationists such a hard time when they themselves have no idea how to explain the big bang?
I was telling my wife the other day, that evolution is less likely than a completed comic book just popping into existence with all that dialogue and art telling a story. Think about about all the complexities of every cell and every strand of dna. The way the earth revolves around the sun to create perfect temperatures for life. It's a gigantic story in and of itself.
How about break your watch into pieces and throw into the ocean and wait for the tides to eventually put it back together again, or even throw it into a washing machine. Accidents are one thing, but there are limits to probability.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 22 Oct 2007 20:57 |
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Registered User
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Posts: 4725
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Right and wrong are subjective. It's a judgement or a label from an outside source and not inherent to the act or the individual it is ascribed to. Millions could call something wrong, but when the opportunity presents itself and new information is added, that 'wrong' person, object or act could become very much 'right'.
Is killing right or wrong?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 22 Oct 2007 21:07 |
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Captain America
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Quote:
I was telling my wife the other day, that evolution is less likely than a completed comic book just popping into existence with all that dialogue and art telling a story. Think about about all the complexities of every cell and every strand of dna. The way the earth revolves around the sun to create perfect temperatures for life. It's a gigantic story in and of itself.
Well, that titanic meeting of the minds aside, I never question how complicated everything is, but, like I said, we haven't figured it out yet.
The Big Bang is evidenced by numerous factors, including the study of clusters and stars. There is a point in the universe where the heavenly bodies are older and, heading out from there, they get younger.
So, there is evidence that a big bang occurred.
Was there a divine hand? I don't know, but I'll say (AGAIN) that I think it's something bigger than we wraps our heads around, right now. It certainly is far older than your bible claims (or how you interpret it).
You believe different.
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