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| Posted: 23 Oct 2007 19:50 |
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The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom was written in 1779 by Thomas Jefferson and James Madison. In 1786, the Virginia General Assembly enacted the statute into the state's law. The Statute for Religious Freedom is one of only three accomplishments Jefferson instructed be put in his epitaph.
Excerpt
that therefore the proscribing any citizen as unworthy the public confidence by laying upon him an incapacity of being called to offices of trust and emolument, unless he profess or renounce this or that religious opinion, is depriving him injuriously of those privileges and advantages to which in common with his fellow-citizens he has a natural right;
Read the Jefferson's Virginia Statute
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 23 Oct 2007 20:12 |
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Captain America
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Thanks for making a great point about how they wanted religious tolerance, but didn't want there to be a religious endorsed by the state.
" …that our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry …"
Wow, it sounds like our civil rights are separate from anything even remotely divine.
"Be it enacted by the General Assembly, That no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinion in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish enlarge, or affect their civil capacities."
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| Posted: 23 Oct 2007 20:28 |
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Whereas Almighty God hath created the mind free; that all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burthens, or by civil incapacitations, tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and are a departure from the plan of the Holy author of our religion, who being Lord both of body and mind, yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either, as it was in his Almighty power to do; yeah, I can see the ACLU turning a blind eye to all that talk of God from a political leader. Omi gosh how dare he? And you know it. Heck a student can't even mention God these days without a hassle.
I'm pretty sure Thomas Jefferson would be on my side of religious liberty.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 23 Oct 2007 20:37 |
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Captain America
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You can believe what you want, but the laws are interpreted the way they are, by conservative and liberal courts.
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| Posted: 23 Oct 2007 20:41 |
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It's clear by his language Jefferson was clearly a believer in free speech and expression of religious liberty. He just didn't want one's religion to determine what office you held, or particularly he didn't want a person's religion to mean they were second class citizens which seems to be the way the dems like to look at Christians.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 23 Oct 2007 20:42 |
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Captain America
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Right, but he also doesn't want the government involved in it one way or another.
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| Posted: 23 Oct 2007 20:47 |
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Tell that to the ACLU. I don't think it's necessary to have lawyers running around looking for possible infringements. It's become the atheistic equivalent of witch hunts.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 23 Oct 2007 20:49 |
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Captain America
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It's become the atheistic equivalent of witch hunts. It's not just atheists, kiddo …
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| Posted: 23 Oct 2007 21:05 |
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Broken record.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 24 Oct 2007 01:17 |
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I never give up. I'll be shouting from the rooftops till the crack of doom, and the Good Lord comes back!
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 24 Oct 2007 01:25 |
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__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 24 Oct 2007 02:54 |
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Quote:
" …that our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry …"
Wow, it sounds like our civil rights are separate from anything even remotely divine.
or he could be saying that one's rights are derived from your Creator whether one chooses to acknowledge that Creator or not.
Kind of like the sky still being blue regardless of whether or not I'm near a window. Or 2 +2 equaling 4 whether I ever learn to add or not.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 24 Oct 2007 16:11 |
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Captain America
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Nah, looking at the rest of it, it really seems to say that people in power often use religion as a tool to meet their ends – whether our freedoms come from the creator or not.
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| Posted: 24 Oct 2007 17:02 |
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Quote:
people in power often use religion as a tool to meet their ends – whether our freedoms come from the creator or not. I do agree with you that that is a prettty common problem historically.
So that whole thing in the Declaration of Independence (on the side without the invisible treasure map on it) about men being endowed with rights by their Creator, that was just a lark of Jefferson's?
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 24 Oct 2007 17:11 |
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Captain America
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So that whole thing in the Declaration of Independence (on the side without the invisible treasure map on it) about men being endowed with rights by their Creator, that was just a lark of Jefferson's?
No, that's what he says … but he extensively wrote about keeping religion and government apart. We can agree that he was, like any of us, complicated and in possession of paradoxes. I do think the idea of keeping specific religious endorsements (Jesus or Allah instead of Creator, for instance) is good and an American tradition long supported by court rulings. And that tradition was in large part developed by Jefferson. I don't think that's really debatable.
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| Posted: 24 Oct 2007 18:05 |
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or he could be saying that one's rights are derived from your Creator whether one chooses to acknowledge that Creator or not.
Your choice of course, but why deny the creator's existence? What would be to gain? That's what I can never figure out.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 24 Oct 2007 18:09 |
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OK, Captain, we can agree that that is probably what Jefferson meant.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 24 Oct 2007 18:11 |
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Captain America
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Your choice of course, but why deny the creator's existence? What would be to gain? That's what I can never figure out.
Maybe it's not about gain and loss (which seems the sleaziest reason for religion (not saying you're sleazy, btw))). Maybe it's about what feels right after growing up in Christian household, researching the faith and the doctrine (and the history) and deciding it wasn't for me.
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| Posted: 24 Oct 2007 18:27 |
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Quote:
looking at the rest of it, it really seems to say that people in power often use religion as a tool to meet their ends – whether our freedoms come from the creator or not.
That's always possible. The position one should take constitutionally is somewhere in the middle. Neither opposing religious expression nor requiring religious expression.
A law requiring all bow down would be wrong. A law not allowing one to pray would be wrong. One should be completely free to expression their religion while no one should be force by law to partake in religion.
The confusion we have is the definion of force. You think just because some building has the 10 commandments on a wall that it is paramount to legally forcing someone to bow to God. It means something good to Christians and Jews, but why should it have to be something negative to atheists? If it doesn't hurt anyone what's the need for ACLU involvement?
It's not like someone is asking you to bow before an idol. Just because a religious symbol is in place does not require a atheists to even acknowledge it's presence. Now if someone were to try to make you bow, or worship. I'd be all up in arms on your side.
Same thing in school. If the class wanted to pray. Let them as long as any kid that didn't want to could do something else. It wouldn't hurt kids to pray for safety and maybe pray for some good grades. I know I'd always prayed before taking tests. Seemed to help me do better as long as I studied. The Lord doesn't bless laziness.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 24 Oct 2007 18:42 |
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Captain America
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Quote:
The confusion we have is the definion of force. You think just because some building has the 10 commandments on a wall that it is paramount to legally forcing someone to bow to God. It means something good to Christians and Jews, but why should it have to be something negative to atheists?
Hmmmm … maybe the first four of 'em? Now, I have no problem with how SCOTUS handles it: As an example of laws and lawgivers, both religious and secular. But a single, decorative TC outside a courtroom endorses one view. Again, how would you like it if your townhall had a sign that read "There is no God" posted on the wall at Christmas? That's an endorsement of a specific stand and a no-go.
Again, religion in private, in church and on commons. Fine. In government space, not fine.
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| Posted: 24 Oct 2007 19:05 |
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Again, how would you like it if your townhall had a sign that read "There is no God" posted on the wall at Christmas? That's a little different actually. Think about it. The 10 commandments is promoting neither Christianity nor Jeudism for one. It's part of the scriptures. To post a sign written not by ancient men, but by a man today that read something to the effect of "there is no god" would be like posting a sign that said "jews are wrong" "budist are heathens", "atheists are going to hell" that kind of thing. Those remarks reflect an opinion by the state. They obviously push an agenda. The 10 commandments are a part of history and tradition. They make a positive statement about two particular groups of people. They don't really make a negative statement towards other religions or people.
You know as much as I wouldn't care to see budist writings on the wall of the court house, I think as long as it didn't say Christians suck, I'd probably just ignore it and look with pride at the Christian scriptures that hopefully would be posted. These things are supposed to represent the culture of the area they are in as well you know. If lived in a budhist area I might expect to see buddist symbols. Should I be all up in arms about it. Why? It is what it is. As long as some bald headed dude in a dress doesn't point a gun at me or used kung fu to make me worship a statue or something. Heck, I have no idea how budhists worship, but you get the idea.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 24 Oct 2007 19:11 |
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Captain America
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Quote:
Those remarks reflect an opinion by the state. They obviously push an agenda. The 10 commandments are a part of history and tradition. They make a positive statement about two particular groups of people. They don't really make a negative statement towards other religions or people.
They exclude atheists, who don't believe. Hindus, Buddhists and Wiccans, who believe something else altogther.
The TC is promoting an agenda – a judeo-christian (and islamic) agenda. Better to not (unless part of a larger one that represents everyone), than to favor one or another. And, again, it applies for government property or events.
The last I'll type on it. I've gone over the same points several times, but it's a losing banner to take up. The courts have ruled it more or less as I've positioned. And I personally am not all that concerned: Trying to explain the ways and whys it's been dealt with is not really the same as endorsing it.
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| Posted: 24 Oct 2007 19:17 Last Edited By: Tim |
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They exclude atheists, who don't believe. Hindus, Buddhists and Wiccans, who believe something else altogther.
It's like having a park with swings and a basketball court. It's there if you like basketball, but you don't have to use it. Should we remove all b ball courts because some people don't like b ball?
I will never understand the logic. Seems so aggressively anti-Christian.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 25 Oct 2007 00:35 |
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The ACLU is not out to get individuals.
You, the individual, have every right to express your beliefs any way you see fit, so long as you don't break anyone's house rules. Government buildings are not public property and must adhere to not endorsing or enforcing any specific religious identity or agenda over another.
That valedictorian you bring up, is still, at the moment I am writing this, at the moment you are reading it, at the moment the board ceases to exist, when time stops altogether, wrong, for breaking house rules.
I, being a non-believer, will not be subject to a trial in a Christian, Jewish or Muslim court as you should not be subject to one of the latter two yourself, or any other religious bearing for that matter. The division of church and state was what Jefferson intended, for EVERYONE'S benefit.
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A week or month from now when you feel like complaining about the ACLU, or praying in public or the other handful of things you keep going back to, tima and again, to the same small group of people, feel free to copy and paste that in there for me.
You do know that doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is one classification of insanity, right?
.......
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 25 Oct 2007 00:47 |
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The ACLU is not out to get individuals. Right only those nasty mean spirited Christians who dare to have opinions.
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Government buildings are not public property and must adhere to not endorsing or enforcing any specific religious identity or agenda over another.
And who made the ACLU God so that they could run around telling the government what it can and can't post in their buildings. Nobody else cares.
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That valedictorian you bring up, is still, at the moment I am writing this, at the moment you are reading it, at the moment the board ceases to exist, when time stops altogether, wrong, for breaking house rules. You have much to learn young jedi!
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I, being a non-believer, will not be subject to a trial in a Christian, Jewish or Muslim court as you should not be subject to one of the latter two yourself, or any other religious bearing for that matter. O brother! get a load of the drama king, here. A couple of religious artifacts doesn't have a bearing on the judges rulings. He's going to make his judgements based on his opinions anyway. If he's liberal he'll try to create his own laws to use against you and if he's conservative you'll probably get a stiff sentence for breaking existing laws.
And for all you non-belivers out there, I say peace! - Marky Mark and the Funky Bunch.
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You do know that doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is one classification of insanity, right?
yeah, so why do you keep disagreeing with me. It'd be much easier to just go along with everything I say? 
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 25 Oct 2007 01:07 |
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so why do you keep disagreeing with me
On the points I've made, you're flat out wrong.
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who made the ACLU God so that they could run around telling the government what it can and can't post in their buildings
The ACLU didn't make that rule.
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O brother! get a load of the drama king
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only those nasty mean spirited Christians who dare to have opinions
Hypocritical jackass.
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A couple of religious artifacts doesn't have a bearing on the judges rulings. He's going to make his judgements based on his opinions anyway. If he's liberal he'll try to create his own laws to use against you and if he's conservative you'll probably get a stiff sentence for breaking existing laws.
This is how you think it is? This is exactly what you deserve. Inherit the wind, fool.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 25 Oct 2007 15:14 |
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The ACLU didn't make that rule. Know anybody else running around suing?
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Hypocritical jackass. 
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Inherit the wind, fool. Drama king!
I thought my answers were not only right, but done with a sense of friendly humor, but I'm detecting anger with you. I'm not sure why though. Why does it anger you for someone to disagree with you're version of things. Is it possible you might be wrong, and you don't want to admit it? It's ok, I'll admit that occassionally I am wrrr.. well I'm very seldom wrrr.. oh you know the word I'm trying to say. I'm not wrrr...g about this particular subject, but I have been sometime in my life on some things in a very distant past in a galaxy far far away. 
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 25 Oct 2007 19:47 |
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The ACLU are employed by the suing parties. They are not the ones suing.
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I'm detecting anger with you. I'm not sure why
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 25 Oct 2007 22:35 |
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The aclu are angels only looking out for the welfare of students I'm sure. They have nothing to gain whatsoever. It's all about the love in their hearts toward their fellow men. I feel a tear coming on.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 25 Oct 2007 22:43 |
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Captain America
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They work for free. I think they get about 3% of their revenue through court awards and use donations and investments to pay their bills.
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