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| Posted: 13 Aug 2007 19:43 |
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Remember Growing Pains and it's star Kirk Cameron from way back in the 80's? Well now 36 year old former teen star Cameron has a great Christian site that offers online videos with very compelling arguments against evolution. If you think evolution is an undisputed fact, I dare you to check this site out. Wayofthemaster.com
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 16 Aug 2007 06:56 |
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zod69
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there are no compelling arguments against evolution tim. just fairy tales from the bible.
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| Posted: 16 Aug 2007 14:32 |
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Well this is the second post I've read from you Zod, and no offense but I'm not reading any compelling arguments for evolution either.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 16 Aug 2007 21:52 |
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Evolution is proven scientific fact and not up for a vote. Darwin vs an out of work actor? That fight's long over. What I cannot get through my head is why Christians can't try to embrace evolution as God's work instead of trying to debate reality.
Let me be clear here. I did not just say evolution was God's work, just that you guys should probably try to fit some reality in with your belief system instead of trying to convince others that your beliefs supercede reality. Just a polite suggestion, honest.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 16 Aug 2007 22:07 |
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Dude, just because you say evolution is a proven scientific fact doesn't hold a whole lot of water. I'm sorry. I was kind of hoping for someone to take some specific points or arguments from Kirk's website to discuss not just regurgitate evolution is fact. All hail evolution. Come on. Evolution seems an awfully lot like religion to me. You afraid to question your beliefs?
The odds of an explosion in space creating land masses that just happen to support life, where life just happened to appear from an explosion as a one celled organims that just happened to become millions of other life forms that just happened to be able to see, hear, taste, smell along with humans that have the ability to reason, feel, etc. And the land mass we inhabit called earth just happened to be the exact distance away from the sun to support life without scorching us all to death. That's just way too hard to believe. I'd rather start taking my comic books as fact. I have a lot easier time believing Superman is working in Metropolis right now as we speak.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 17 Aug 2007 02:16 |
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Quote:
Dude, just because you say evolution is a proven scientific fact doesn't hold a whole lot of water
After watching the idiotic banana video, I have no intention of watching anything else from his site; he's an idiot.
You're right though, just saying it doesn't mean a thing. Just like your bible saying things happened doesn't hold any water with me. IT'S FACT and IT'S PROVEN and it's quite more reliable than where you're getting your rediculous notion from. You have no problem accepting that there's some invisible magician that blinked everything here but you want to dispute what is already agreed upon by minds far greater than ours all over a passage in a book. Want to dispute gravity next or how the solar system operates? Evolution is nothing like religion; there's actual evidence.
As for that explosion? The fact that the land masses were drawn together to create a new environment means whatever was going to live here had to adapt to survive to that environment. That's all the proof I really need for the topic of evolution. I'll take those odds you list over the umbrella of 'the almighty did this in a week and it was good'.
While we're at it-decide what you're discussing. Is this about evolution, the creation of the planet, our biology and physiology or astronomy? This has happened a couple of times on the other site where you jump over to ten different things like what veterans died for and how we see, etc instead of staying on topic.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 17 Aug 2007 16:23 |
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Is this about evolution, the creation of the planet, our biology and physiology or astronomy? I'm a big picture kind of guy.
Here's the thing, I, even though I do believe there's more proof for creation, admit that creationism is faith based, but evolutionist will not admit the same thing even though the odds for evoulution being the cause for all creation to exist and work on it's own are so astronomical it's beyond human comprehension.
When is the last time you saw an explosion put things together? Even Darwin admitted that the eyes were hard to imagine evolving. They are way too complicated an organism. It's like saying a digitial camera evolved from ooze.
I take by faith the Bible sure, but you take by faith what evolutionist say and the truth is you really don't understand any of it. Do you? Could you prove evolution in a court of law?
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 18 Aug 2007 01:47 |
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I'm not a scientist and yes, I do actually place my faith in science, evidence and what is at least presented as fact. Science tells me gravity is real and I accept it even though I could not possibly begin to explain it. Science tells me carbon dating is real and I have no idea what it even is as far as the process goes, but I have faith that it is real, mostly accurate, and the scientists using it are doing it properly. Science tells me that evolution really happened and is still happening and I have faith enough to believe it.
If you want some actual kind of proof, here's a small example. Did you ever notice that they have to keep making new formulas for roach spray because roaches develop an immunity to old ones? That would be a small form of evolution. They adapt to what is killing them to survive. For another, how about every time they supposedly come close to creating a cure for AIDS, they usually instead find a new strain of it instead? Living things change(even at a molecular level) according to their needs and surroundings. I'm no lawyer either but those would be my lead in for the argument.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 18 Aug 2007 15:21 |
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Science tells me carbon dating is real and I have no idea what it even is as far as the process goes, but I have faith that it is real, mostly accurate Ah, but everyone doesn't agree it's entirely accurate and not just your average guy on the street. Carbon dating has mistakenly dated newly formed rocks from Mount St. Helens as being ancient when scientist know exactly when they were formed. Carbon dating isn't a perfect method. It has flaws.
No one disagrees with gravity.
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Science tells me that evolution really happened No some scientist told you, not science. There is a difference.
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roaches develop an immunity to old ones If the DNA of an attribute is encoded into a creature then the creature can change to some degree in an different environment which explains how Noah could have had a few species of dog on the ark that eventually became all the species of dog we have now. Which also explains how Noah's family could turn into all the different races we now have. But I've never seen a dog grow gills before jumping into the water have you?
To be honest though, now that I think of it, I'm not sure I've heard of the roach thing. Where did you read that anyway? I looked at wikipedia, and there was nothing about cockroach poison having to be changed. Could you find it on a science site of some kind so I can look at it?
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 19 Aug 2007 00:47 |
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No, a scientist has never personally spoken to me if you want to get so literal, so different scientists branch out under the heading of science as far as what I am talking about.
I never said entirely accurate and certainly not perfect. Everything has flaws.
A few species on the Ark doesn't explain how different types of animals wound up all over the world and that's just silly to think that Noah's family created every other race. Faith won't cover that gap of reason.
The roach thing? I'll see what I can find for you.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 19 Aug 2007 00:54 |
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I did mention I wasn't a scientist right? Check this out;
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Insecticide Resistance, Pesticide Immunity
Since there are far too many pests to discuss in this article, we will concentrate
on cockroaches. The cockroach as an amazing creature that would be fascinating
to everyone if there were not such a pest. Their ability to adapt is what makes
them such a pest that they will probably never be put on the endangered species
list.
Let us say that there are 1,000 cockroaches in your kitchen and you decide to use
a spray to exterminate the roach population. Let us also say that you spray the
area with a solution that contains Cypermethrin. Thirty days after spraying the
kitchen, there are about two hundred roaches still alive. Most of these surviving
insects are probably hiding in wall voids or other areas that your spray could not
possibly reach. Only if the roaches leave their hiding places and crawl across the
treated areas will they come into contact with the insecticide.
Of the 200 cockroaches that are remaining, there could be five of the insects that
were in fact exposed to a lethal dose of the bug spray but were not killed by the
bug spray. These five are said to be "resistant" to that spray. In other words they
are considered to be "immune" to the effects of the insecticide.
Why are the roaches not killed by the spray? The remaining roaches in our
example of a treated kitchen are still alive after being exposed to one of the best
roach sprays on the market. These lucky bugs have an enzyme that breaks up the
pesticide molecule which is then flushed out of the insect's system, in much the
same method that our own bodies have the ability to catch foreign or dangerous
particles and then send them on their way through our very own waste
management system.
The lucky roach in question was born with this particular enzyme and will pass it
own to its offspring. In other words, the roaches exposed to a certain pesticide
spray do not necessarily "build up" a resistance to the spray but instead are given
the lucky pass handed down to them by their ancestors. In the chain reaction that follows, more and more of the resistant strain are seen as the roaches multiply.
That was found rather quickly if you check the times on my posts and I found that here:
http://www.pestproducts.com/avoidance.htm
I googled roaches immunity. Try it. 
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 19 Aug 2007 21:02 |
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Thanks so it proved my point though. The roaches already had the ability in them already.
Just like Noah and his family already had the different DNA of different races in their bodies.
I mean what is another race but a little different average height, different nose, or different pigmentation. It's not that big a deal to think we all have those characteristics within our dna structure.
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I googled roaches immunity. Try it. I will give you credit where credit is due. You are the superior googler. Those words did not pop into my head. I was thinking "kill cockroaches" and I was using yahoo for that matter.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 21 Aug 2007 02:49 |
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I don't know how I missed this...
What point was proved? That Noah took two dogs on the ark and they branched out to become every variety of dog and wolf in existence and they all just happened to migrate out to their now natural habitats? Nothing proven there as that is just not possible. Roaches adapting to poisons does not equate to area specific roaches appearing all over the world when there were only two to begin with.
Noah's family did not magically become African, Mexican, European, etc all by themselves. The story of the flood is an exaggeration of what really happened making it little more than a fairy tale, just like your theory of Noah's floating United Nations.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 21 Aug 2007 04:29 |
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Nobody said anything about magic. Dogs, people you name have different attributes encoded into their dna. It just doesn't always manifest itself all at once. That's what Kirk Cameron was talking about with micro or macro evolution.
So in other words the dna was there all along.
I know you think it's immaterial, but as you know every major ancient culture in the world has it's own story of a giant flood. Coicidence, I don't think so.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 21 Aug 2007 21:21 |
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If there was really a flood that wiped out of all creation except for the Ark, how do any other civilizations have that record?
Not a coincidence at all.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 21 Aug 2007 21:39 |
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I assume the story was passed down through Noah's children onto the developing generations who by then had created their own version. Much the same way gossip works today.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 21 Aug 2007 21:40 |
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There's an explanation for just about any doubt you can conjure up.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 22 Aug 2007 02:20 |
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So, let's say that Noah's children populated the whole world(back in the 'incest is ok' days) by spreading out to every corner of the globe and they all kept a similar story if not exactly the same story of that flood. Answer me this then. When exactly did Noah's kids start creating different religions and why?
It's a shame the explanations you provide create more doubt. I'm waiting for the moment you realize you've painted yourself into a corner which is exactly what's just happened with the fairy tale of Noah's ark.
Your move sir.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 22 Aug 2007 15:11 |
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Answer me this then. When exactly did Noah's kids start creating different religions and why? Same reason America starting following other religions and turning away from her original Christian foundations I suppose. Rebellion, confusion, men seeking to create their own idols their own gods that bent to their will instead of the other way around.
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I'm waiting for the moment you realize you've painted yourself into a corner Exactly where was it I painted myself into a corner? This sounds like classic liberal strategy. If you say it, it must be so. So if you say I'm in the corner, or I'm losing the debate then anybody that reads this will have to think it's true I guess.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 23 Aug 2007 03:49 |
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You're telling me that the only survivors on the whole planet according to this story are Noah's family. That's who was stuck on the boat for the big flood. That's who witnessed God's work and their father following God's word. After they run ashore, they just start branching out repopulating the earth. Some of them walk over to Africa, others hike to Europe, and others come to the Americas. Not only do they become all these different races, but each different group creates their own religion after the same boat ride-not likely.
You're painted into a corner because the story is a load of crap, and you grasping at straws trying to explain it away doesn't fix it.
Whether or not incest was ever ok or not, the idea of them and their animals being the only things left on Earth is bad enough. To suggest that those animals became every variety of animal we have now and that group of people became every variety of race is absurd.
It would be a stretch to imagine, but very doable, for just one man and woman to eventually breed a population that we have on this planet now, given enough of a timeline. It's the miracles that bury the story and consume any possibility of it being possible.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 23 Aug 2007 15:11 |
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each different group creates their own religion after the same boat ride-not likely
Wait a minute you have a hard time accepting that over hundreds of years that the earth could be repopulated with people of different religions and veiwpoints, but you have no problem believing given enough time a monkey can turn into a man?
Now ain't that something.
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To suggest that those animals became every variety of animal we have now and that group of people became every variety of race is absurd.
Again this is kind of weird, but you have a problem believing a single group of people and a boat load of every type of animal could become all the races and all the species, but you have no problem believing every living substance in the world came from one single celled organism of unknown origins?
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It's the miracles that bury the story and consume any possibility of it being possible.
Right because evolution wouldn't take any miracles just a bunch of statistical impossibilities lumped one right after another. Wait couldn't that be considered a miracle? Seems like evolution and Christianity both take faith. Wait I said that already. I know you are going to see my point eventually.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 23 Aug 2007 17:19 |
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every living substance in the world came from one single celled organism of unknown origins?
I don't believe any such thing. Check your facts. Living things on this planet started as single celled organisms, not everything spawned from one organism.
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evolution wouldn't take any miracles just a bunch of statistical impossibilities
You want to go that way? Everything in nature is a 'miracle'. Every last little facet of it. The miracles I was talking about would be that God spoke to him, had enough time and know-how to make his boat, then going and collecting two of everything, the flood waiting for that laundry list to occur before wiping everything else out, and then having his floating menagerie magically repopulate the earth in such wonderfully specific ways.
Statistical improbabilities against your magician just blinking it all here? Guess which one I'm siding with.
If your only point keeps coming back to 'God did and can do everything because the bible says so' then I will never see your 'point'.
By the way, is there actually anything political in this? Are we just going back forth about religion for any real purpose other than you possibly trying to convert me?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 23 Aug 2007 17:35 |
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Living things on this planet started as single celled organisms, not everything spawned from one organism. Okaaaaaaaaay, I don't see a huge difference here.
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The miracles I was talking about would be that God spoke to him, had enough time and know-how to make his boat, then going and collecting two of everything, the flood waiting for that laundry list to occur before wiping everything else out, and then having his floating menagerie magically repopulate the earth in such wonderfully specific ways See here we have an intelligent being overseeing it all with all power making it happen. Your way everything is on it's own. How would evolution get us to this point without some sort of over sight?
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By the way, is there actually anything political in this? Are we just going back forth about religion for any real purpose other than you possibly trying to convert me?
Gee whiz, in one post you fuss at me for talking about other things, and in this post you fuss at me for not changing the subject. Make up my mind for me would you.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 23 Aug 2007 17:53 |
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Okay. Lets say we talking about a forest instead. All the trees came from seeds, not all the trees growing from one single seed. Get it now?
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See here we have an intelligent being overseeing it all with all power making it happen. Your way everything is on it's own. How would evolution get us to this point without some sort of over sight? Your way is supernatural and mine is simply nature. Why does nature need a supervisor?
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Make up my mind for me would you
This site is supposed to be a political one. We keep finding ourselves with you tring to convince me of God's work and me convincing you I'm still an atheist. My question was if we're going to move on from that.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 23 Aug 2007 18:13 |
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All the trees came from seeds, not all the trees growing from one single seed. Get it now? So all the seeds existed at the same time, you mean like they were created that way.
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Why does nature need a supervisor?
Well it does when it goes by your rules...eyeballs popping up at of nowhere...monkeys turning into men. Gee it sounds like a work of science fiction don't it?
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My question was if we're going to move on from that.
Thus I occassionally mention other things within the conversation that could allow you to alternate our course just a little. What would you like to talk about?
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 23 Aug 2007 19:25 |
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Evolution can be science fiction if creationism can be complete fiction.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 23 Aug 2007 20:56 |
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Ahh but at least I get something out of creationism like hope for the future, and a reason to exist. If I were to choose a position based on nothing but faith. I'd go with creationism any day.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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