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| Posted: 25 Aug 2007 01:44 |
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What lines of morality and who has the right to decide what they are?
Pedophilia is against the law and will remain against the law. Where do you get these nightmares from?
Can you imagine putting something non-educational into the school curriculum that doesn't belong in a school in the first place? I bet you can.  Considering you apparently don't live in California and really apparently don't have a gay sector, this really shouldn't concern you especially since it sounds like your Christian propaganda at work twisting facts. Did you actually look at the proposal this time or do I have to read it for you again like with the hate crime bill? Remember how you didn't want those groups to get seperate treatment until we found out you were in the first group protected on the list? Get a hold of the actual proposal before jumping all over it, making probable false conclusions.
Unlike most religious groups, we atheists don't have news networks of biased media that tell us how to think and since I can't speak for all my atheist brethren I'll leave it at 'judgements on a case by case basis'.
Tell ya what. Gay adoption? I don't know what kind of parents you had, but judging by mine, having two parents that actually love each other and actually want their kids can't be a bad thing even if society shuns them because they'll have each other. Look how many kids are growing up with only one parent these days or worse yet, the kids in the 'system' that nobody wants or cares about. You would deny those system kids a home because of that line about man lying with another man? They're not hurting you or anyone else, regardless of what your bible says and maybe you're a little too concerned with other people's lives. Leave em be.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 25 Aug 2007 16:33 |
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What lines of morality and who has the right to decide what they are? See your contradicting yourself here. I'm good with this one. I know God decides morality, but you aren't sure why something is moral or not.
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Did you actually look at the proposal this time or do I have to read it for you again like with the hate crime bill? Remember how you didn't want those groups to get seperate treatment until we found out you were in the first group protected on the list? Get a hold of the actual proposal before jumping all over it, making probable false conclusions.
I still don't trust a hate crime bill. Crime is crime. It's not necessary to try and read the crook's mind as to whether or not it was done with love or hate. The proposal in general wanted to tell kids about gay historical figures, and add gay sex is normal to their education when kids shouldn't even know what the word gay means.
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Unlike most religious groups, we atheists don't have news networks of biased media that tell us how to think Well I don't know about you pal, but I can't think of a scenario where anything gay should be taught to 1st graders in any shape or form. I don't care how biased a news organization is. It's hard to twist that around.
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You would deny those system kids a home because of that line about man lying with another man? Yeah, I would. For years straight couples have had hard times adopting kids. So I find it yet another politically correct move that isn't done for the benefit of the child but for gay politicians. You can't possibly think gay adoption started because of all that baloney you just mentioned. Come one that was right out of the gay handbook. You think two gay guys should adopt a boy, and it would be ok? No possible issues there? You know I've heard gay guys that became Christians say the main thing that causes boys to turn gay is rape. After that they get suckered into believing they were born that way even though they were attacked initially.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 25 Aug 2007 23:24 |
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It's funny how people want to bypass the truth and argue and nitpick about little tidbits that they feel will help them justify their stance on issues.
I have a question for all you liberals out there: If there is no God and he didn't make us, than why are any of us here?
Oh, and by the way zod69: To say that people from the south 'are inbred, backwards morons' is a very stereotypical statement and only proves that you have lived a sheltered life. You should get out more and see for yourself what the world is like rather than what CNN tells you.
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| Posted: 26 Aug 2007 01:42 |
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__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 26 Aug 2007 01:50 |
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Hi Rogers, welcome to the political discussion.
Why are you asking liberals about God?
If there is a God and he did create us, why isn't he here?
Tim, how many names are you going under?
Maybe the answer to that immortal question of why we're here is to bicker and ask pointless questions.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 26 Aug 2007 01:51 |
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zod69
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lol, i knew that would piss off somebody. i know that it's a stereotypical view of southerners. it was a joke. it must have really gotten to you. anyway, if you actually read any of my posts from the superman fan forum, you might actually know that i'm not liberal. i'm a libertarian (since you feel the need to label everybody) and i don't get my news from CNN. i'm actually quite critical of most american news shows. they do sometimes have interesting shows though. i guess you were mad because i criticized Fox. figures. i got into this with DH on the other forum so i don't feel like repeating myself. if you're not from the supermanfanforum, then go and check it out. tim'll give you the link. as for your question: "why are we here?" well, we can discuss that another day as i've gotta go. but i doubt it's to serve a magic man in the sky. was that god or santa claus you were referring to?
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| Posted: 26 Aug 2007 03:04 |
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Wow, zod, what a cop out. So now it was only a joke? Seriously, dude, where do you stand? I've never read any of your posts till I read this thread. I found out about this site trolling the Captain America forum, which I think belongs to Tim. Anyway, I don't much care for Fox or CNN, I think they are all pre-Maddonas who only care about their own opinion.
To pakratmak: Thanks for the welcome. All hate crime bills should die before they come to a vote. I don't care if it protects Christians, the homeless, or the disabled. In this country, all men are created equal. There are laws already on the books to protect the helpless and if the crooked law enforcement officers aren't doing anything to protect the people than it's time for us to head to the polls and vote in people who will do something about it. If we pass hate crime bills it begins to create classes of people who are above the laws of the regular citizen. That, my friend, is the beginning of socialism. It didn't work for Russia and it won't fly here in the good 'ol USA.
As to my question: pakratmak dodged it with another question and zod69 simply said what he believes the answer isn't. Come on people. It's a simple question, can anyone give me a ballzy, one-liner answer?
I'll even make it more personal: If there is no God and he didn't make you, than why are you here?
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| Posted: 26 Aug 2007 20:55 |
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Tim, how many names are you going under? I've been recruiting from my Captain America site.
Zod is referring to SupermanTV.net's message board. I'm too lazy to go get the exact link to the particular topic we were arguing on though.
Zod only believes he's not a liberal. I think his brain is stuck back in 1973 or something where the libs got their political policies from smoking pot and taking acid trips. Anybody that's seen any TV show from the 70's and looks at what people were wearing back then knows every last teenager back then was smoking something. I don't know if Zod is that old, but I'm sure he followed their same pattern for political development.
Hey dude pass the joint, and what do you think about the war man?
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 27 Aug 2007 04:13 |
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I'm here because my father didn't like rubbers.
Next question.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 27 Aug 2007 09:05 |
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zod69
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RR, i guess maybe it was a cop out. but obviously i don't think all southerners are inbred. so in that sense, i was joking. i guess i just wanted to avoid an argument. sorry. sometimes i write intelligent posts that make tim ask if i'm taking some sort of course at university and other times i give into my baser instincts and start name calling. i call it my own personnel "O'reilly Factor." (not sure if you get the reference) anyway, don't listen to tim. i told him i don't believe non violent drug offenders should be in jail and that i think drugs (or at least marijuana) should be legal. and that i have premarital sex with my girlfriend. so now he thinks i'm immoral. and tim, i know liberal and libertarian sound and look similiar, but they are different.
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| Posted: 27 Aug 2007 11:09 |
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just wanted to add, RR, if you were serious about wanting to know where i stand, i guess in a nutshell... i think like bill maher (as in i agree with about 95% of what he says) i like to read noam chomsky. i think he's a genius. anyway, that's sorta where i'm coming from. like bill maher i can be kind of an asshole sometimes but i'm always willing to (and tim i'm sure will attest) apologize if i crossed the line. anyway, as for your question. if there is no god and he didn't make me than why am i here? the answer is i don't know. noone knows why we're here. but that doesn't prove the existence of a supreme being. and if i don't know, how do you?
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| Posted: 27 Aug 2007 19:16 |
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i have premarital sex with my girlfriend. Dude I don't think that's the best way to go, but I sure don't care about it as long as you don't go to school telling kids the joys of sex without marriage. that's my look of shock and awe.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 27 Aug 2007 21:55 |
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Clever, clever answers, guys. But there is a God, you just don't see the signs. How can I prove to you God it real, zod? Man that's a tough one. After all, I can't make him shoot lightning out of the sky or anything. But when it comes to signs, I'd say He's a bit more subtle. You can see it in a sunset or in the stars in a night sky. He made all of it and you can't convince me otherwise. I guess the answer is peace. Ever since I asked Jesus into my heart, I've had more peace. I know it's weird to believe in something that may or may not be proven real, but, dude, it works for me. Anyway...
I agree with you on the non violent drug offender thing. However, I would recommend that you get your girl a ring and do it right. There aren't many men left in this world who will be there for a girl when she's in trouble. I'm not saying you're one of those guys, but if this girl is good enough to have sex with than she might be good enough to marry. I know it's not that popular in our culture to get married anymore, but it's worth some thought.
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| Posted: 27 Aug 2007 22:15 |
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Captain America
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No one can prove or disprove the existence of God. Many people believe there is a supreme creator: Christians, Jews and Muslims all worship the God of Abraham, but do so in radically different ways. Buddhists, Hindus and Zoroastrians look to different sources, as do many aboriginal cultures worldwide. Spiritualists believe something; Wiccans another. Ancient peoples had thousands of gods. Some folks – more and more, in fact – don't believe in anything at all
And most everyone knows they're right … so, who is it? Maybe they all are (except the atheists): Even the God of Abraham acknowledged other gods (Commandment 3: You shall have no other gods before me).
Now, before you tell me he is referring to false gods, he address them in the next line when he addresses idols. So, he knew he had legitimate competition, and he was, by his own admission, a jealous god.
Just points to ponder … again, no one's gonna change anyone's mind here or anything …
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| Posted: 27 Aug 2007 23:22 |
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no one's gonna change anyone's mind here or anything
No one should have been trying to in a political forum Cap.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 27 Aug 2007 23:45 |
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well, for better or for worse, someone who eschewed science for literal Bible interpretation wouldn't get a sniff of a high office.
Now, we have a president who claims he's following god's plan, that god chose him to lead the country. though, I'm not sure which god, so I'm not trying to place blame. He claims he's a christian, but I never read anything in which Jesus endorsed unprovoked war.
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| Posted: 28 Aug 2007 10:42 |
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zod69
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hey RR, you got it right. whatever floats your boat. just don't impose it on others i say. as for my GF, i'm always there for her. she knows that. not sure about marriage and kids though. Capt.A, i like what you say. tim, i'm not sure if you were referring to "sex ed." but i'm all for that. when i was 16, i came home one day and found a box of condoms in my underwear drawer. i never said anything about it until years later when i asked my mom if she had bought them for me. she said yes. when i asked her why she said: "because you were gonna be having sex whether we (my parents) wanted you to or not. so at least this way i knew you'd be safe." it's all about education. same with drugs. study after study has shown that the best way to combat drug abuse is education,treatment and prevention. not locking people up.
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| Posted: 28 Aug 2007 15:11 Last Edited By: Tim |
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I never read anything in which Jesus endorsed unprovoked war. Look I hate war too, but to say that Saddam never provoked a war is just silly. Look guys we are Americans, and our country doesn't run from challenges. Maybe there were other ways to handle Iraq. I won't hold you having your own opinions against you, but to act like Saddam was just minding his own little business and was wrongfully attacked is like something out of a hippy book from the vietnam era. This isn't Vietnam by a long shot. Even the liberal dems aren't just going to pull out of Iraq over night no matter what they'd like to portray in the primaries. So lets all put this into a realistic perspective shall we. We can disagree, but let's not get carried away here and start fantasizing our own reality.
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that god chose him to lead the country Maybe he means in the sense that God controls everything. You know as much as I hate to acknowledge this but Clinton would not have been President if God hadn't allowed it. Maybe it was our punishment I don't know, but the Bible says that God raises up leaders and puts them down. Nothing happens in this planet that surprises God. Let's be honest here the only reason you guys hate Bush so much is because he lacks the communication skills of a Ronald Reagan, and two he dares to mention God. The Clintons refer to God all the time. I don't hate them over it. I just believe it's total hypocrisy from the lives they lead. You ever hear of Bush sleeping around, or doing anything in his private life that didn't resemble a Christian? You don't like his policies, fine. They are some I don't like, but you all take it way too far.
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someone who eschewed science for literal Bible interpretation wouldn't get a sniff of a high office Man, George Washington would have been in trouble with you guys.
Zod on the sex thing, that's up to parents to teach kids. Your mother took a role I see. I'm not sure I agree with her methods, but still that's you all's business. I think abstinence is the best thing to teach kids.
The drugs issue. I'm not against treating drug users in some sort of confinement to get them off the drug if that's your goal. I got the impression you just wanted to legalize all drug use. People who make a living selling drugs should still go to jail though. Interestingly enough it was the Nixon administration that first looked into the idea of treating drug users instead of just putting them into jail, but after the whole watergate scandal Nixon didn't care about his old plans enough to carry them out. See at the time there was a huge problem with people going to jail over drugs, and Nixon was advised that the current put them in jail only strategy was only making the criminals more hardened.
And I'm not exactly a super Nixon fan either, but that was a part of history. It's too bad the idea didn't really get going good back then.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 28 Aug 2007 15:28 |
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Captain America
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You know as much as I hate to acknowledge this but Clinton would not have been President if God hadn't allowed it.
Punishment for what? Reagan?
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Let's be honest here the only reason you guys hate Bush so much is because he lacks the communication skills of a Ronald Reagan, and two he dares to mention God.
Let's be honest: I couldn't care less if Bush mangled the English language and left the Constitution alone, or if he hadn't lied about the reasons to start a war, or if he hadn't played hardball politics with 9/11 and painted people who disagreed with his policies cowards and unpatriotic.
Stop trying to simplify this crap to meet what seems to be a very myopic world view.
Bush was a draft dodger, a drug user and was convicted of a DUI. His wife accidently killed a man. Do these make them horrible people? No, but no one's perfect.
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Maybe there were other ways to handle Iraq.
We were doing it, and by all accounts (except the ones coming from the saber-rattlers), they had been working.
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This isn't Vietnam by a long shot.
Um, it was your president who compared to 'Nam last
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Even the liberal dems aren't just going to pull out of Iraq over night no matter what they'd like to portray in the primaries. week.
I know that. There needs to be an intelligent discussion on that very subjects, and it needs to begin ASAP. That's what the Dems have been clamoring for.
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So lets all put this into a realistic perspective shall we. We can disagree, but let's not get carried away here and start fantasizing our own reality.
That's what I've been saying about the Bushies and their followers for years, now! Thanks for backing me up.
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| Posted: 28 Aug 2007 16:38 |
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It's not that Saddam didn't provoke war. He didn't provoke this one. There may be connections to it discovered later, but for right now, no dice. When 9-11 happened, people expected a response. Supposedly the Bush clan is old freinds with the Bin Ladens, which makes sense for lil Bush to attack daddy's old enemy at that point. Saddam wasn't involved until W got him involved.
I dislike(hate's too strong here) Bush for a rigged election, how badly he does his job, the lying, the laziness and the excuses.
I miss Clinton, he'd be the one reason I'd vote for Hillary.
I can't imagine George knowing how to talk to women enough to spark off that kind of scandal.
Drug sellers going to jail? Smells like a new topic.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 28 Aug 2007 16:47 |
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Captain America
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It's not that Saddam didn't provoke war. He didn't provoke this one.
Oh, he provoked a few … at least one of which was at our behest during the Reagan administration, which later also sold and traded arms to Iran (something which Ronnie himself apologized for – oh, to have a president again who acknowledges his administration has done wrong and has the guts to face the nation with it).
Attacking Saddam was akin to invading Korea after Pearl Harbor.
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2007 05:31 |
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Remember we went to war with Germany before we dealt with the Japanese completely during WW2. I think we bombed Japan and then after that most of the focus was on Germany. I think FDR was more worried about Hitler than Japan.
The thing is you guys drive me crazy acting like Bush is some kind of monster for attacking a mass murderer like Saddam. I think we should have went after the guy with shotguns for what he done. So you know that's just not the best way to win converts to your side. If you want to win hearts you got to be more reasonable. You know it's a reasonable argument to disagree with tactics, but all this other junk is nutso. That's not saying I would agree with you, but at least I wouldn't think you guys were wacko. You know what I'm talking about right? Like that topic calling Bush a war criminal. I think pak made that one, but you say junk like that too.
I'm just a firm believer in good fighting evil. Somebody like Saddam kills innoccents. Then somebody ought to stop him. Somebody did. You can argue timing, and motives, but that fact alone is a good thing.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2007 05:44 |
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Saddam spent most of recent years just trying to lead his people and pursue religious interests. This war was started as a response to 9/11 over wmd's that were never there and as a pre-emptive measure to stop terrorism which has only resulted in people's rights getting violated, laws being broken and more events of terrorism.
Bush is too much of a dumb bunny to be a monster, but he is a war criminal in my eyes. That is why I made that other thread.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2007 09:42 |
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i'm not gonna comment on the whole saddam issue. pakman and capt.A are doing just fine. i did want to address the sex ed. issue though. now tim, your against abortion. don't you think that if young teen girls were better educated and informed about sex and birth control, and boys as well, there might possibly be less abortions? and don't you think that if some of these girls weren't taught all their lives that sex is a sin and that its shameful, etc. etc. etc. that there might not be so many scared to death 13 year old girls giving birth in public restrooms and then leaving the babies in the trash? even the girls that drop the baby at someones door, they shouldn't have to go through something like that alone. as for parents teaching sex ed, they should. but there are certain things that a young teen might not feel comfortable talking about with their parents. when you were 12, did you wanna discuss masterbation with your mom? do you wanna explain to your 12 year old daughter about blowjobs? some things are better left to a professional. there was an article in my local paper a few months back about a dad who was furious that his 12 year old daughter was learning about how to put on condoms in school. he said that she was very upset and that she didn't even know what a condom was. well, 12 years old and doesn't know what a condom was?? he's obviously not doing his job or she's lieing. my guess is that she was lieing, but would probably get into trouble if her dad knew, that SHE knew, anything about sex. what are your thoughts tim?
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2007 11:39 |
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Back in the day, 12 was way too young to approach the topic of sex. Now it's too old. Shame.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2007 16:04 |
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young teen girls were better educated and informed about sex and birth control, and boys as well, there might possibly be less abortions? It is proper that parents teach kids about sex. Schools sure shouldn't teach how to have it safely or otherwise. Abstinence teaching is the best possible route to go. You want to teach girls about sex ed. Then have abstinance courses teaching about the benefits of waiting and the problem with abortion, and having a child out of wedlock as a teenager. Teach about the diseases, but don't go as far as to teach how to have sex and the different kinds of sex and crap like that.
Kids don't need to know what types of sex there are because they don't need to have sex. I'll say it again. The only sex ed they need is to wait till marriage. They can always read a book when they get older. It's not that hard to figure out. I never had a sex ed class, or even anything from my parents and I figured it out ok. When you get married you got all the time in the world to experiment. That's part of the fun.
I hate to sound insulting since that's your gig, but really you have to be out of your mind to think a 12 year old girl should know about condoms and sex. I got a cure for you catch a boy getting close to her and beat the living hell out of that boy. Ok that was an emotional response not a logical one, but gee whiz what a warped mindset.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2007 16:39 |
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Captain America
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The thing is, abstinence-only programs aren't having the desired result.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/13/A ...
Nor have they been effective in Third World countries:
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/79661.php
People should teach kids to wait, but they need to teach them what's what, too.
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2007 17:19 |
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"This study isn't rigorous enough to show whether or not [abstinence-only] education works," Wilson said.
Some federal money, in addition to state and local dollars, supports comprehensive sex education, he said. What is spent on abstinence "is not that much money when it comes to offering an alternative to the other message." He said modifications in the program are already being considered, including a focus on low-income neighborhoods and extending instruction into high school.
The study did not address the impact of a student's family income on the effectiveness of abstinence-only programs.
common sense tells you that if you tell a kid it's ok to have sex and here's how you do it. They will end up doing it. Maybe one problem with the programs is too much hee hawing around. Show the kids what sex diseases do to people. Show them what aids does. Tell them about the risks of cancer years later. Lay it all down every grisly detail. You might even suggest it's wrong to have sex before marriage.  Heaven forbid.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2007 21:34 |
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no one's gonna change anyone's mind here or anything
Well Cap, I wanted to make it clear where I stood after pestering these guys about where THEY stood. This IS a Kirk Cameron thread after all. If someone is allowed to profess on this site that they don't believe in God, than I should be allowed to post why I do.
As to your 10 commandment thought from the bible, you might actually want to read it first before using it to make a point to a Christian.
The commandment you are talking about is actually the First one, "You shall have no other gods before me." The Second one is that you shouldn't make idols. It’s found in Exodus 20 if you care to read it.
As to Prez Bush, he did say he was a Christian, but I never heard him claim that he was following 'God's master plan' for the war in Iraq. That sounds more like liberal, generalized hatred for Bush your spewing. Why would Bush lie to everyone to start a war in Iraq anyway? And don't tell me it was only to use it to win a second term or because of some stupid conspiracy theory. The man was clearly as shocked as you and I on Sept. 11th and is trying to fight back to protect us. He may have chosen the wrong country to fight, but the President is a good man, in his heart. Though he may not be the smartest one we’ve ever had, he does mean well.
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2007 21:40 |
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Registered User
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Posts: 4725
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Quote:
he does mean well.
I'm not a theologian or anything but isn't there a saying about the road to Hell that comes to your mind right there?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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