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| Posted: 21 Aug 2007 22:06 |
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The one thing about creation vs evolution that really gives creation the upper hand for me is this. Believing God exists allows me to afford the creation of the universe to an all powerful being who is beyong the known laws of science by His very nature. That gives creation plausibility for when people say who created God. Nobody did, but then God is beyond our known laws of science and order.
On the other hand to accept evolution you have to play strictly by the laws of science and order. Problem is science runs out at the beginning of the universe. Any way that you explain creation from a big bang or anything else you run into a dead end because something, some form of matter or gas or atom had to be in a pre-existant form to create the beginning boom. You end up with the same type of question as creationism. Who created the very first building block or blocks of the universe? At the beginning of everything science has to assume there was nothing, and general math has to assume that zero and zero equal zero.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 22 Aug 2007 02:10 |
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Creationism for you then falls under the same umbrella as mythology, when people absolutely needed answers as to how things came about or worked in nature, they made it up. You want to go by the notion of a creation needs a creator and then switch it up by declaring Him beyond that accountability.
Science may run out at the beginning of OUR universe, but maybe that's not where all this came from.I have a crazy notion for you to ponder and I'll get to that in a second.
Science says matter cannot be created or destroyed, merely altered, which would mean to non-scientist me that this was always here and that the big bang just shaped it to where it's at now. Now, this is the point where you're supposed to point out how altogether too perfectly done it all is. The distance from the sun, trees creating oxygen, how our bodies work, the ecosystem and the food chain, etc. Here comes the madness...
What if, in a neighboring galaxy, the people there discovered a way to create a galaxy on the border of their own? Ordinary people(extremely smarter, but the same as us) who decided to try their hands at an experiment. You can think of this like the Genesis device used in those Star Trek movies-the torpedo that turns a dead planet to a thriving one.
What if we're only an experiment?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 22 Aug 2007 15:23 |
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What if we're only an experiment? Please tell me you saw what I'm about to say coming.
Then who created them, where did they come from, or what pre-existant building blocks and mattter of the universe was there that gave them their existence?
It goes right back to the same point. My idea takes faith. Your idea or ideas and theories take faith. You go far enough back there is no scientific explanation that follows known logical or mathematical reasoning. It is impossible for there to have been nothing that became something unless there was a being on a higher plane of existence than us, a being who is beyond normal human reasoning and logic. Whether you like it or not there is one thing for sure that everyone should agree, and that's the beginning of the universe is beyond normal human reasoning no matter what you believe or theorize. We have nothing nor will we ever discover a substance through scientific methods that can just poof into existence by itself with absolutely no other factors to spir it on, and that's the conditions one has to assume existed in the very beginning.
Where scientific testing fails, common sense and reason must prevail. Philosophy has to fill in the gaps where test tubes fall short.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 22 Aug 2007 15:26 Last Edited By: Tim |
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Creationism for you then falls under the same umbrella as mythology, when people absolutely needed answers as to how things came about or worked in nature, they made it up. No because as I've said before I've lived and experienced to know there are truths in the Bible that are life changing. It is a book of great wisdom that changes lives. That's real. I can see it in my own life. So far as physical proof. It's there for me. God is like the wind. You can't see wind, but you feel it's effects, and you see how it moves the world around you.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 23 Aug 2007 04:04 |
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It appears we have the real circle of life here.
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It is impossible for there to have been nothing that became something
Yet people continue to ask why and how or just assign it to some God or another.
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Where scientific testing fails, common sense and reason must prevail
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a being who is beyond normal human reasoning and logic
Which side are you on again?
Wanna hear something funny? I really don't care where it all came from. I don't know, probably will never know, don't care, and will not lose any sleep over it. If the answer is not available to me there's probably a good reason for it and Ive got better things to do, think and be.
Sorry, still no God here, regardless of analogies and lack of 'answers'.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 23 Aug 2007 15:01 |
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Wanna hear something funny? I really don't care where it all came from. I'm not trying to make you mad here, but that sounds like something someone usually says at the end of an argument when they know they've been licked and just don't care anymore. Of course the object isn't necessarily to win, but to do the impossible and get you to admit evolution and creation both take faith. I admit creation takes faith, but you don't.
Second I don't really hear any evolutionist actually searching for answers on where their big bang components came from. That seems to be heavily ignored. Not very good science to ignore what you can't comprehend is it?
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 23 Aug 2007 18:10 |
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Creationism takes faith because without faith, it just didn't happen. Evolution happened whether you believe it or not and while you're going to say that God exists whether I like it or not- science backs my view of the subject with a basic game of show and tell. Your God industry on the other hand is a game of all tell and no show. The only show I have ever seen from religion in general is when each religion lays claim to some idea or happening that someone else couldn't claim first. Your religions snapped up the creation of the world real quick. All we get is 'God made this' and there is absolutely nobody who can dispute it because they were there firsthand. Science has unlocked some answers and continuously looks for more about our origins and the religions are still just pointing at page one. Does science take faith? To a non-scientist it surely does. I have no idea what they did to find this stuff out, no idea what experiments were failures, no idea where it's going next. We are both in the same boat with being stuck with what we're told and making a choice as to which side we'll go with. Faith is immaterial for me really because all this world is giving for the 'origin' is the choice between expanding levels of science and a magic act.
Components? You're still looking for magic rocks? You just want some easy answer like 'God did it', right? If it was an explosion large enough to create a galaxy, what makes you think anyone is ever going to figure out what created that explosion? Are we really supposed to be here on this planet and know what came before the creation of the galaxy it's in? Are you kidding me?
Just to make you happy and finally settle this hopefully;
Q:Where did the Big Bang come from?
A:God did it.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 23 Aug 2007 18:23 |
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what makes you think anyone is ever going to figure out what created that explosion? Dude it's like cause and effect you know. If you see an explosion there has to be some dynamite. If there is a big bang then where did the dynamite come from? That's all I'm saying. Scientist just don't want to talk about that, because it would make people question their evolutionistic assumptions and then everyone would jump ship to head back to creationism and that is not acceptable for your average scientific stiff. See I like to question things. Now you say you do too, well question things then. Maybe you don't think so, but I've spent agonizing hours contemplating the creation story. I'm a doubtful kind of guy. I don't easily trust anyone, but after thinking about it and thinking about it over and over again. I find sufficient reason to believe the Biblical version over a so-called theory from men that won't even admit the holes they have in it. Wouldn't it be more believable if they were up front about the whole problem with the pre-existent building blocks to begin with? It's just hard to argue that there is a order to creation that points to a creator. If this world happened by accident everything would be in such a disorder that survival for us would be impossible much less the comfortable lives most of us have these days.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 23 Aug 2007 19:22 |
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People like myself don't talk about how the big bang happened because we don't know, don't need to know, and don't have any way of finding out if we did want to know. You're asking about standing on a planet in a galaxy that was created by an explosion, how the explosion happened. The only answer we will probably ever have to that is the one we make up. We can't rewind the footage to before the explosion and we can't make it all go back to how it was before the explosion to examine what happened. They've traced what they know back to that point but can't go any further back. It's like me asking you what you remember from being a sperm cell or the egg for that matter. You religious folks still get your 'God did it'. He was the intelligent designer of the explosion.
Ok. We're just going in circles. Creations need a creator but God didn't have to be created and all because the bible said so. If the world really did happen as a complete and total accident, that to me is still a better explaination than 'God did it'. Fossils tell me the planet wasn't created in six days. Science tells me the big bang happened. Science gives us sufficient evidence to believe we evolved from single cell organisms to simple life forms to primitive man to where we are now.
I have a feeling it is all going to come down to the one simple issue you keep driving at. Seems to me that you don't really need to care where the planet came from and I'm sure evolution isn't really keeping you awake at night. Seems to me you're trying to prove God's existence to me, which is a waste of time. I'll show you why this is a waste of time. Please don't respond to anything else but the following task here.
Prove that the tooth fairy does not exist.
Now you can enlighten me.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 23 Aug 2007 21:06 Last Edited By: Tim |
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Fossils tell me the planet wasn't created in six days No they don't. You got that from that drunk comedian.
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Science tells me the big bang happened. No it doesn't. You just said so yourself. Science can't rewind and figure out how a big bang occurred with no matter or atoms to instigate it. Of course they'll just ignore that part.
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Science gives us sufficient evidence to believe we evolved from single cell organisms to simple life forms to primitive man to where we are now. No it doesn't. Someone told you it did, and you accepted it.
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Prove that the tooth fairy does not exist. Don't need to. A tooth fairy wouldn't be capable of creating an entire planet that could sustain life, rotate and stay the exact distance away from the sun needed to keep life sustained. Nor could a tooth fairy create an eyeball more complicated than the digitial camera. For that matter neither could a cosmic accident do all that either. Interesting isn't it. God made man in his own image. He even gave man the ability to dream and theorize. Man just chooses to go wild with his imagine coming up with impossible circumstances to justify his own existence like big explosions that simply happened with no reasonable explanation as to how. One thing logic must tell you, and that is we are put here on purpose. That much is evident to anybody with faith or not.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 23 Aug 2007 22:18 |
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Prove the tooth fairy doesn't exist. No more, no less.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 24 Aug 2007 15:29 |
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Oboy, I think I made my point. Your obviously trying to imply God is made up like a fairy tale. Well I dare say nobody worships the tooth fairy or believes the tooth fairy created anything.
Just for your benefit. I'll play along one more time.
Nobody has claimed to have seen a miraculous tooth fairy that I know of unless they are wacko. Nobody has ever claimed to have their lives changed, or prayers answered by a tooth fairy unless it's some weird kid.
Witnesses claimed to have seen Jesus after his ressurrection. It was even written down in a book by real witnesses called the Bible.
New Christians show evidence of God by changing their lives for the better. Giving up booze and things and putting their families first.
Moses wrote down his experiences with plagues, red seas parting and so forth. Now are you going to call Moses a liar?
Your example doesn't make any sense really. You're trying correlate two things based on your own assumption they both don't exist.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 25 Aug 2007 02:07 |
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Actually I was trying to point out something completely different but at least I now have absolute proof that you're no mind reader.
All I said was to take something that we all 'know' doesn't exist and actually show proof that it doesn't. What I get is some diatribe pitch for being saved again and you making a wrong assumption as usual.
My point is that a negative cannot be proven. Nobody can prove that something does not exist. This is the spot I am always in when it comes to things theological. This leaves the burden of proof on you and you're just not convincing me.
If this does not find a way back to a political discussion consider me done with it.
And before I hear about licking my wounds; one minute the bible is the word of God and the next it's the testimony of witnesses-babble. Witnesses saw Jesus after his resurrection? Where did Jesus go exactly? Did we walk across the ocean to some invisible island or what? People saying they saw something and people seeing something are actually two different things-especially un this case. Christians making associations based on their feelings doesn't qualify as evidence. Moses supposedly wrote Genesis right? He's a storyteller. He tried to pass that off as truth? He's a liar. He don't like it? Let him do something about it. Maybe God can blink up a lawyer for him to sue me with after his resurrection.
If God exists, prove it. The burden of proof is on you and your feelings and bible are not 'evidence'. Since you won't more than likely be proving anything to my satisfaction with God, let's just get back to politics.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 25 Aug 2007 16:04 |
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Where did Jesus go exactly? He ascended to heaven in front of his disciples.
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He's a liar. He don't like it? Let him do something about it. Maybe God can blink up a lawyer for him to sue me with after his resurrection.
I think if you could put Moses in a court room most people would consider him a good witness.
Creationism vs Evolution is defintely political when you consider the debate over what is taught in schools. The whole time I've been proving that evolution takes as much faith as creationism thus making it just as viable to teach creationism in school as evolution since both take faith to believe. I could easily say evolution is a magic fairy tale and shouldn't be taught to kids as fact.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 28 Aug 2007 00:05 |
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He came back, disappeared from the tomb, rounded up his disciples and then died again? Why? You don't think there's even the slightest chance that someone made this up?
If we could prove that was a dead guy in court giving testimony, there would be screaming and confusion and probably a serious lack of logical thought at that moment. If a guy even said he was Moses from the bible, they wouldn't let him testify. Of course, he might do that staff snake trick if they let him bring the stick in with him in the first place or they might shoot him for brandishing a weapon or they might shoot the snake and arrest the lunatic. It's just not pretty any way you slice it.
Evoloution is based in science and Creation is based in belief. Being that the belief in question is religious in nature, to teach creationism in school is unconstitutional. You can say anything you like about it and it doesn't change that fact. As to whether or not creationism should be taught in school, the supreme court shut down that argument in the 1940's.
Why do you seemingly feel it so necessary for someone else's kids to be taught your beliefs? To go down that road means that every child would then have to be taught every belief from every religion so that the school would not be endorsing just one religion. Maybe the answer is to keep religious things in religious places and stop being so concerned with what our neighbors are doing. You want your kids to be taught Christian values? You teach them. You take them to church. You send them to Christian schools. Don't lay that burden on the rest of us unless you're willing for the exact same response in kind.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 28 Aug 2007 00:18 |
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Evoloution is based in science and Creation is based in belief. You aren't going to give that one up are you? I think that I have supplied a lot more food for thought concerning the faults of reason in evolution than you have for it.
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to teach creationism in school is unconstitutional Sure, they just taught it a lot longer than the time they haven't taught it. You'd think if it was unconstitutional they would have caught the mistake a long time before that.
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Why do you seemingly feel it so necessary for someone else's kids to be taught your beliefs? Dude, I could ask you the same thing.
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school would not be endorsing just one religion. To teach kids that there is a belief that lots of people uphold where a supreme being was responsible for the world's creation is not teaching a specific religion. Further to be fair teachers need to put a disclaimer beside evolution that it is only a theory.
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You want your kids to be taught Christian values? hey at the very least they shouldn't be taught humanistic values.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 28 Aug 2007 00:45 |
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I don't want your kids or anyone else's taught my beliefs. They're your kids, not mine.
It's unconstitutional to teach religion in school Tim. If they were to teach the bible as a historical or philosophically based class that would be fine. Theology in school is banned by the constitution. You want to skirt around that by saying a supreme being is responsible for creation? Besides that being theology, which one did you have in mind? Saying that evolution is a theory is a fact, not a warning. Relativty is a theory too.
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they shouldn't be taught humanistic values.
I must be reading that wrong. Explain please.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 28 Aug 2007 15:29 Last Edited By: Tim |
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Humanism is a form of liberalism. It's like teaching kids that gay lifestyles are normal in school, or teaching them that God isn't real, or pretending evolution is a fact. It's anything that strays from traditional moral values. A lot of times it's more implied in schools than direct statements like God is not real. Evolution of course is a big culprit in humanism. Sex ed and so forth. Does that help explain the term.
Here's some stuff I found on the net about it
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Secular Humanism is a worldview. That is, it is a set of beliefs through which one interprets all of reality—something like a pair of glasses. Second, Secular Humanism is a religious worldview.[2] Do not let the word "secular" mislead you. The Humanists themselves would agree that they adhere to a religious worldview. According to the Humanist Manifestos I & II: Humanism is "a philosophical, religious, and moral point of view."[3]
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Not all humanists, though, want to be identified as "religious," because they understand that religion is (supposedly) not allowed in American public education. To identify Secular Humanism as a religion would eliminate the Humanists' main vehicle for the propagation of their faith. And it is a faith, by their own admission. The Humanist Manifestos declare:
"These affirmations [in the Manifestos] are not a final credo or dogma but an expression of a living and growing faith."[4]
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Theologically, Secular Humanists are atheists. Humanist Paul Kurtz, publisher of Prometheus Books and editor of Free Inquiry magazine, says that "Humanism cannot in any fair sense of the word apply to one who still believes in God as the source and creator of the universe."[5] Corliss Lamont agrees, saying that "Humanism contends that instead of the gods creating the cosmos, the cosmos, in the individualized form of human beings giving rein to their imagination, created the gods."[6]
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Philosophically, Secular Humanists are naturalists. That is, they believe that nature is all that exists - the material world is all that exists. There is no God, no spiritual dimension, no afterlife. Carl Sagan said it best in the introduction to his Cosmos series: "The universe is all that is or ever was or ever will be."[7] Roy Wood Sellars concurs. "Humanism is naturalistic," he says, "and rejects the supernaturalistic stance with its postulated Creator-God and cosmic Ruler."[8]
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-sum/sum-r002.html
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 28 Aug 2007 15:36 |
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Captain America
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Humanism also is the ultimate in self-reliance and doing-it-yourself.
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| Posted: 28 Aug 2007 16:25 |
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Well, I personally don't want anyones kid's being led away from what their parents want passed down. In other words, I don't want some teacher trying to convert their students whether by curriculum or personal agenda. It's up to the kids themselves what they choose to believe philosophically and/or religiously based on what they're taught outside school.
Is it ok to tell kids that the gay lifestyle is ok? If they live in an area with a 'gay population' and little Johnny wants to know why Jimmy has two dads or moms, perhaps it's best to create some sort of understanding the kids can grasp. Maybe, in the interest of tolerance, it's best to teach something instead of trying to ignore it. For someone to in any way suggest to those kids they could or should try it would be wrong. This is something else the kids would have to either recognize as there already or choose later on.
Evolution, whether we agree with it or not, is a part of science and part of school. There is no supposed about it, you can't teach religion in school. I don't have any problem with that at all but you know that already.
Home economics was a lie to me. The name implies some sort of money management skills. Then we find out it's for a small taste of married life supposedly. At the end of the day, it was a butch lesbian teaching us how to cook. I believe she was a gym teacher before teaching us how to make a baked alaska. No child should go through that, ever.
Here's what school is supposed to be as far as I'm concerned. Kids learn to associate with each other, the basic building blocks of knowledge, and following/respecting authority and some level of discipline. Later levels of school improve those earlier building blocks, finetune their associations with other people, and eventually, if we're lucky at all, how to become authority in whatever area the student chooses, whether by profession or appointment. All this other stuff is really nitpicking.
Humanism itself? You really have to ask me where I stand on it?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 28 Aug 2007 16:40 |
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Captain America
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Pak, m'man,
Problem is, creationists treat evolution with less respect than atheists treat the Bible. Whereas most of us agree that there are a great many historical and spiritual lessons, creationists find no redeeming factors in evolution.
But neither side wants the other side taught in schools.
I wouldn't even care if America wasn't in such steep decline in regards to science and research.
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