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| Posted: 02 Jul 2008 15:30 |
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Good audio you can listen to while you do other things on the web.
According to this study of the Bible in American history the 10 commandments were part of school study for over 210 years. Seems to me that the founding fathers would have noticed that if they really were as hot about separation as we are led to believe.
Bible in America Audio
Bible in America part 2
from the Truths that Transform program
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 03 Jul 2008 01:15 |
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I bet the Stephen King book club has a PR department too.
Seperation of church and state is very real and was intended. Please cope with it already.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 03 Jul 2008 17:23 |
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I watched your videos, you could at least play the audio while your checking your email.  It won't kill you.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 03 Jul 2008 17:55 |
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I started to play the first one and the very first thing he presents is a retcon on slavery, which your book supports but instead he says they used the book to stop slavery.
Utter horseshit and I won't waste time on the rest.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 05 Jul 2008 16:19 |
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And you say Christians are narrow minded. The truth of the matter is that those that opposed slavery in those days did so on Biblical grounds. Sure there those that tried to support slavery by using the Bible as well. A lot of them, but the point is that those that really understood the reading of the Bible were opposed to slavery.
You see the type of slavery in the old testament that God allowed was more like a contract. The person owed money and could repay by working for a man. After 7 years he could either continue doing so or quit. This agreement didn't allow for the servant to be abused.
Now take slavery in early America. Black folks were literally kidnapped from their own homes and forced to work for others. A lot didn't even survive the trip to America. There is no where in the Bible where God gave permission to kidnap people and force them to serve others, or be mistreated like the way Africans were. Who knows maybe the Civil War was God's punishment on America for slavery.
You should watch Amazing Grace
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 06 Jul 2008 04:56 |
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Quote:
And you say Christians are narrow minded
Never, Not once. Find the quote.
Quote:
The truth of the matter is that those that opposed slavery in those days did so on Biblical grounds.
The bible explains how to keep and punish your slaves, so if anything, people against slavery ,ight have used a bible to do so, but they conveniently skipped a few parts.
Quote:
those that really understood the reading of the Bible
As opposed to those that eat it instead or what? The rest of us can read just fine thank you, apparently more objectively as well.
Slavery does not get a pass or apologetic'ed. It says alot about anyone who would even try to justify it.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 06 Jul 2008 14:25 |
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Quote:
The bible explains how to keep and punish your slaves, OK Pak, I gotta call you on this, although its way off topic. Cite your source.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 06 Jul 2008 23:02 |
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a (hopefully) unbiased starting point:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/sla_bibl.htm
a very biased source, but prove them wrong just the same:
http://www.evilbible.com/Slavery.htm
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 06 Jul 2008 23:41 |
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Tim, that same site has something just for you. A person who also knows how to read the bible 'properly' and uses that information to strengthen their beliefs.
Good stuff here:
http://www.evilbible.com/Impossible.htm
Enjoy. 
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 07 Jul 2008 12:44 Last Edited By: preacher man |
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Pak, you can do better than that. Rather than say what the Bible says about slavery, the first site contains a lot of people saying what the Bible says about slavery. The second site is a little better, although they are pretty one-sided. But you can't convince me that your real problem with the Bible is that it doesn't rail against indentured servitude the way you think it should?
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 07 Jul 2008 12:52 |
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The second link is a list of direct quotes and running commentary.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 07 Jul 2008 12:55 |
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I read them.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 07 Jul 2008 13:30 Last Edited By: Tim |
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Sorry for being in a hurry but me and the wife are on a sort of a local vacation this week.
I looked over the sites real quick. Just have to ask where is the actual verse in the Bible that says go to another land, kidnap people, and beat them while barely feeding them? Not there. I don't see any actual verses from the Bible listed.
Why so determined to attribute bad things to the Bible?
Like I said before the Civil War may have been God's punishment for slavery. God wasn't for slavery. He didn't leave the children of Israel in Egypt did He?
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 07 Jul 2008 20:00 |
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Slavery
Quote:
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)
The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 07 Jul 2008 20:08 |
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Quote:
But you can't convince me that your real problem with the Bible is that it doesn't rail against indentured servitude the way you think it should
I wasn't aware we were talking about my problems with the bible. Those are many and this list here is just a very small drop of distasteful in a much larger pool.
Those are not railing against slavery in any way shape or form. They are advocations of it by being directions(since it's in a bible, some would call them laws) on how to handle the business of being a faithful slave owner up to and including selling one's own daughter into slavery. There's no excuse.
Quote:
Why so determined to attribute bad things to the Bible?
Takes no determination from me. Many many others have already done the work and the bad things (evil) were already present to point out if people took the time to read it.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 07 Jul 2008 21:05 |
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I see a possible problem with our communication here.
Those are not the King James Version.
Thats maybe why you're not recognizing this evil, it's a different 'version' of the one true word of YHWH.
Now the problem just multiplies itself....versions of one true word kinda defeat the purpose of have one 'true' word.
Ok, let us see what holds in King James' 'version'.
Leviticus 25:44-46
Quote:
44] Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
[45] Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
[46] And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.
Looks the same with a barrier of language over it. Compare it with the 'version' above.
Next we have;
Exodus 21:2-6
Quote:
[2] If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.
[3] If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.
[4] If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.
[5] And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
[6] Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
Like William Shatner doing Shakespeare....
You can look up the others guys.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 08 Jul 2008 12:52 |
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Much better, Pak, I knew you had it in you.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 08 Jul 2008 19:58 |
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The quotes were there the whole time and honestly, someone else had already done the homework. One translation versus another doesn't change anything unless something is literally lost in translation. Sounds and looks odd but I mean it just the same.
What bothers me is when I when bring up that slavery is very plainly in the bible and supposed avid readers and learned studiers of the bible deny it.
Tim's question to me:
Quote:
Just have to ask where is the actual verse in the Bible that says go to another land, kidnap people, and beat them while barely feeding them?
is the typical deflection I get from others where they confuse the slaves back then and the slaves brought to America. They are equal evils but not on equal terms.
Note to you Tim, I'm not mad at you even though this stuff makes me want to scream sometimes. You're merely saying what you believe which is what was taught to you, at least as far as I can tell.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 08 Jul 2008 20:01 Last Edited By: preacher man |
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I don't beleive I made an issue out of the translations, I just wanted to see you actually post the verses, I knew where they were. This aint my first rodeo.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 08 Jul 2008 20:04 |
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You're a unique character preach, you've read it.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 08 Jul 2008 22:53 |
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Well it would be downright silly of me to preach and teach a book I hadn't actually read, wouldn't it?
Let me ask you a question, Pak. I think we can agree that murder, lying, stealing are all bad things. Immoral things. And I think that we can agree that the Bible had a much more profound impact on popular culture in the past than it does now. We can disagree on whether or not that book having such an impact is good or bad, but I think we can agree the influence was there.
So here's the question, and I swear I'm not setting you up here. Would you say that the average American is more or less moral now than in times past? and for simplicities sake, we'll limit the definition of morality to those three items. Do you think people lie more, steal more and kill more than in times past? And if so, what do you attribute that to?
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 09 Jul 2008 01:19 |
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Quote:
Well it would be downright silly of me to preach and teach a book I hadn't actually read
It would but that doesn't stop many from what I've seen.
Quote:
the average American is more or less moral now than in times past?
I'm not sure there's any real measure for this to judge an amount or any change in those amounts really. Just by a standard based on population, we have more people and even at the same % committing immoral acts we would naturally have more. Going the other way we now have more cameras than ever before which leans toward people feeling like they're being watched and maybe putting off that act for fear of being caught at it. Looking at only these three items and being as objective as possible.
I don't think a lie in and of itself is necessarily moral or immoral. I think this one get's a hearing on why the lie was told or the desired result of telling the lie(including lies by omission) before it's even deemed one or the other. For example, if someone is doing it to spare another person's feelings I don't consider it immoral, maybe in fact it's more moral to hide the truth from someone for their own good. We would have to go case by case to exact a proper judgement, after we came to agreement on what morality means here. If you want to stick with 'Thou Shalt Not Lie' exclusively then absolutely everyone is guilty and we have far more liars on the planet than ever before, still growing exponentially.
We would have to push hard for it not to be considered immoral by any standard. The only possible exception is maybe stealing back what someone stole from you. In most opinions it's a flat out fact that it's immoral and I couldn't really argue it seriously. The thing is, I think this has actually gone down a bit considering those cameras again. A person has to be absolutely sure they're not being watched or incredibly without other options to do it now. Considering the number of desperate people in this world and the tough times we're facing this might actually increase, in fact probably will.
Killing is a bit vague. People get bronchitis and take antibiotics thus killing the bronchitis. You swat flies and mosquitoes without a thought probably unless you're a buddhist. Convicted murderers who get the death sentence and are executed won't make many people lose any sleep. If someone is robbing your house and you catch them and they don't run away and instead brandish a weapon where you have to defend yourself, you had justification and I would not call this immoral either. So we are left with what exactly? Murder and abortion only? Give me an idea of what 'killing' exactly means before i answer something I don't intend.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 09 Jul 2008 04:48 |
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It's a bit of a semantic game, isn't it? I think we can both agree that murder is immoral. So do you think we have more or less of it than in the past?
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 09 Jul 2008 17:14 |
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Quote:
It's a bit of a semantic game, isn't it?
You said killing in your question, not murder. Yes, we can both agree that murder is immoral even though we might not agree on exactly the same list of things that constitute murder and a third party might have their own opinion, etc. It does go back to semantics whether we like it or not.
We have more people on the planet than ever before, an evolved system of laws, all the ingredients for making good people do things they ordinarily might not, a similar level of warfare in the world as in times past, and we've gotten really good at killing things as time has progressed. I don't think we've really 'peaked' just yet.
If you want to connect this to society as a whole just ask yourself if soldiers fighting on foreign soil and murderers at home are really a part of our society. Soldiers are doing things overseas as a matter of performing their duty (following orders) and while the intention is to preserve and protect our society, their actions don't necessarily reflect on our society in the manner we speak of when we think of society. Criminals are simply why we have jails and prisons in the first place, to keep them seperate from society. Again these may seem a matter of semantics but I think cast a heavy shadow on the answers we might be seeking.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 09 Jul 2008 18:03 |
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Well rather than focus on the areas where we disagree, I want to focus in on the things that we both agree are wrong. I understand a growing population can throw the numbers out, but do you think that on an individual basis, people are more prone to lie, steal and kill than they were in times past?
And yes, I am going somewhere with this.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 09 Jul 2008 18:30 |
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More prone on an individual basis? Absolutely not. Individuals haven't changed.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 09 Jul 2008 19:48 |
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hmmmm...interesting. So you think that people are just as moral as they have always been?
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 09 Jul 2008 20:17 |
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Should I be consulting a lawyer at this point?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 10 Jul 2008 04:36 |
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I probably like lawyers even less than you do.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 10 Jul 2008 05:30 |
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I'm gonna be careful with my testimony just the same.
There is something I'd like to label as a morality breakeven point. Right now would be one of those points. There's really no reason or impetus or gain toward being more or less moral than we are in a 'natural' state. When people are motivated, they will shift their own personal scale in either direction. If they think they are being watched or maybe trying to cover up some mischief they will try and go up on the morality scale to gain a positive review, at least what they presume will be a review as a favorable judgement of how they are perceived. The less they feel they're being watched or judged, the more they feel they lack options, the more they feel they're being denied something and sometimes unfortunately just out of the plainest curiosity, they slide the other way.
If we place what is acceptible and moral behavior within parameters, external forces seem to push those parameters about but I really do believe the individual has the final say on what parameters they themselves find acceptible in the spirit of remaining true to themselves.
That model I just layed out for you would mean that any present day individual would be morally equal to their ancestor counterpart and that the external forces themselves are the main culprits in any shifting going on.
(That was much harder than it looked)
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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