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| Posted: 31 Jul 2008 03:15 |
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Exactly how much reality do we need in our fantasy entertainment?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 31 Jul 2008 14:40 |
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Well, let em throw in my two cents. I am trying to raise a houseful of kids and allow them to enjoy soem of the same escapist entertainment that I grew up on. Unfortunately, entertainment is so much darker than it used to be, i have to pre-screen most of what comes in our house, from movies to comic books. It's kind of sad, but it seems to be a treend going back as far as you would care to look.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 31 Jul 2008 14:55 |
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I've always wanted Batman movies to look real. I've always felt that the settings and some of the costumes were fake looking. Nolan has done one thing I really appreciate in the Dark Knight and that's make me feel like Gotham City is a real city.
I still don't like Batman's costume all that well. I like the face mask but the rest just ain't Batman.
Back the question I think it's ok to have dark realism sometimes. Just not all the time. I really enjoyed the Fantastic Four movies for the comic relief.
Let's face it darkness doesn't always sell either it's hurt the Hulk franchise thanks to Ang Lee's take on a character that should be serious but also have some lighter moments. You have to know your audience and Hulk fans are most likely family types.
A lot of fan boys are watching Dark Knight over and over again. The hype is bringing everbody else. Without the hype this movie would have still made more than the first I think, but not nearly as much as it's doing. The amount it's making now is beyond the normal range.
A Superman movie is definitely not a place for darkness. Realism yes, but not darkness. Superman movies should be about hope.
My favorite formula for Batman if I could do a movie would be to keep the realistic settings, and attitudes but add a little more superhero type action that's goes above reality just wee bit more. More sci-fi I guess, just a little more, and have a few more lighter moments. I also think Nolan should have switched the last scene where Batman caught the Joker to the middle and the middle to the end. The biggest explosions and action should always be at the end.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 31 Jul 2008 21:35 |
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My thoughts..
Kids are going to be attracted to this from the ads or youtube vids or hearing others talk about it or a movie tie-in at some fast food chain. There's a handful that will pester the living hell out of their parents to go see it, and a few out of the loop parents will do just that. Kids don't belong at this movie. Clowns are already scary enough to some kids-this one takes the cake, literally. In a fantasy seeting, a parent who stupidly takes their child to a violent movie at the very least can show them that it's fake, that they have no reason to even imagine someone doing this for real. DK can cause some damage on a young mind badly in two ways-first, we don't really -see- the extreme violence that is suggested throughout. We're left to fill in that information by our own imaginations, just like most comic books do in between panels. Kids have less limited imaginations than adults (usually) and the pencil trick or the fake batman screaming or the Rachel/Harvey bomb or the hospital or just Two-Face hovering over Jim's son near the end can scar a kid mentally.
Secondly, what we imagine strongly enough, our brain interprets as reality. This applies to kids and overly impresssionable adults as well. Without some stretch to believe, some incredible element to tell you it's not real, people are going to get some bad ideas in real life in response to fictional accounts that get perceived as real. This is a politician's real entry into the old red herring of 'violence on TV, in games, in comics, etc leads to real violence'. We can be very very thankful for the cowl and the technology and Harvey's visage here as those bridges to reality that save us from the brink. Those things are pointedly not real and we have something to make sure others understand it's not real. Dodged a bullet-this time, so far.
That's just the kids and easily impressionable.
What about the rest of your movie going public? We do want to see new things and exciting things. Larger than life romances, compelling drama, the struggle of good overcoming evil, half naked pretty people(maybe not half), explosions, chases and witty catchphrases are old favorites we still go for. In some cases we do go specifically to be more informed on a subject or (heaven forbid) actually learn something but for the most part we go to be entertained. If you're badly seeking to escape reality for the two hours, exactly how badly do you want to be reminded of reality?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 31 Jul 2008 22:12 |
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If you're badly seeking to escape reality for the two hours, exactly how badly do you want to be reminded of reality? I like that.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 01 Aug 2008 15:17 |
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I think there is a definite problem with the horror movie genre. Did you all hear about the guy who cut another man's head off on bus the other day? They said he acted like some kind robot.
Could this kind of violence be created by someone watching horror movies as a child? I'm afraid to watch these horror movies myself. Who wants to be desensitized to death and human suffering on this kind of level. Horror movies I think cause people to forget that they are people.
Dark Knight I say kids under 8 shouldn't go at all. It made me squeamish when the Joker had that knife to that black mob boss, but since they didn't really show anything, I don't consider it as bad as say something on SAW. Something I can only guess as to the kind of violence is on there. Just hearing descriptions of that movie gives me the creeps.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 01 Aug 2008 17:52 |
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The issue with violence in media causing real violence in kids and impressionable people has been around since before we were born. Funny thing is one of the first things attacked was comic books. Before that they had to form committees to protest saloons and the such.
A piece of fantasy which shouldn't have any plausible connection to reality should not be a problem. Even if we watch a murder or crime carried out step by step on a screen or page, this should not cause someone to act on it who is mentally healthy to begin with. I worry that the more real these things get, the less it will matter how mentally well someone is before watching it.
When you have an emotional investment in an event or character or story, your brain starts to believe it's real, regardless of whether it's even happening around you. Lets say you're reading a book(not even a scary one)and the phone rings in the character's home just as it rings in your real environment-you are going to react to it, just on a feeling of unease to absolute terror. The more of an investment you make, the more your brain takes it as real, and responds as if it's real.
The violence in DK is never shown directly on screen that I can recall. We have the horrific visage of Two-Face to look at, which might give me nightmares. The bank manager takes a few hits but we don't see the thing that really takes him out. We see a gun near someone's head and hear the shot and the scene changes before we see the effect of the bullet. We hear Rachel talking on the phone and the explosion and don't actually see it. We hear the fake batman screaming but don't see what's happening to him. We have to imagine(however easy the imagining might be) what exactly happens to each victim.
The fact you have to imagine it combined with the power of a child's imagination can make this film just as bad if not actually worse than Saw. Kids haven't seen the violence on film as much as we have to make any sort of judgement against. The real question here is whether something they can see is more or less powerful than something they have to imagine.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 01 Aug 2008 19:44 Last Edited By: Tim |
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he fact you have to imagine it combined with the power of a child's imagination can make this film just as bad if not actually worse than Saw. I don't buy that one, pak, sorry. I think if a kid starts imagining stuff worse than Saw than that kid's got problems.
Compare hearing a gunshot to actually seeing someone shot in the head on screen. There's no comparison.
Like in the old westerns. A guy gets shot and falls down. That's not disturbing. That's like watching kids playing cowboys and indians. See an actual war news footage and that's disturbing for a kid.
DK however was scary. Really scary without showing blood and guts, and that's sort of how the old movies and TV shows had to do it. Create a sense of fear without actually showing gore.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 01 Aug 2008 20:09 |
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I might not have conveyed it clearly enough.
Take any time you don't have all the information in a situation you're invested in. Let me try to do better. A woman married to a police officer gets a phone call late at night. Before she picks up the phone, she knows to brace herself because of the possibility of it being that really bad news all police wives dread hearing. Before she picks up the phone her mind starts shuffling through all the possible scenarios that could have happened to her husband. Now lets' say that when she picks it up it's her husband and he just hit the wrong button on his speed dial. Everything she imagined was worse than the reality. She breathes a sigh of relief, tells him not to scare her like that, and tries to go back to bed. Lets say she has a momentary flash of 'who was he calling?'-here comes the imagination producing answers to fill in the unknown again. Her mind will probably imagine things vastly worse than the reality. That's just how it works.
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I think if a kid starts imagining stuff worse than Saw than that kid's got problems.
I think that kid might have a great imagination like all kids do and the only way it becomes a problem is if he acts on it.
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Compare hearing a gunshot to actually seeing someone shot in the head on screen. There's no comparison.
True, but that is really oversimplifying what I'm talking about.
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Create a sense of fear without actually showing gore
Exactly. Our minds filled in the blanks when we were given clues to the events represented. We saw Joker put the granade in the banker's mouth with a string attached. We pulled away to outside and heard/saw clues of an explosion. What do you think the banker looked like afterwards?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 01 Aug 2008 20:19 Last Edited By: Tim |
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I guess I'm not against movies that demand the audience fill in the blanks. In fact I think that's cool in a lot of instances. I don't like scenes that take that away and force gore upon the audience. As we've discussed not showing it can be just as scary by causing us to just think it's going to happen.
I really and truly believe seeing gore takes something away from us we need as human beings. Anything you see over and over again makes you become desensitized to what you are seeing over time. If you were forced to watch puppies killed day after day, how long would it be before you would not care anymore. The same goes for people. How long before a guy watching horror movies over and over again just doesn't care anymore?
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 01 Aug 2008 20:49 |
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How long before a guy watching horror movies over and over again just doesn't care anymore?
Not long. The same could be said of watching porn. The same could be said of working in an ice cream shop.
Becoming desensitized to something is not a problem. That just takes the shock or awe or specialness or excitement out of something. It's when people try to use it as an excuse for acting out, or it straight up affects their behavior to the point they could harm themselves or someone else for it. You can take issue with someone doing or consuming too much of something and paying a price for it, but you also have to admit that overconsumption does not automatically equal a negative effect because of it.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 01 Aug 2008 21:04 |
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This reminds me of a Twilight Zone episode where a scientist was explaining to his robotic creation why he as a human could not take a life. Basically he said that as a human being he had too many (can't think of the exact word) hangups or apprehensions to murder where the robot did not have that problem.
Point being, numb the conscience long enough and take away all those insecurities we as humans have about death and you might just create the perfect killing machine.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 01 Aug 2008 21:09 |
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Still apples and oranges with what a person might think about and how they might act on their thoughts.
Seeing blood and gore over and over and over doesn't weaken a conscience. It merely improves your tolerance for looking at blood and gore.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 01 Aug 2008 21:12 |
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I disagree. I think the line between a murderer and your average guy is a lot thinner than you realize. Anything that erases that line even a little bit does a great disservice to our fellow man.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 01 Aug 2008 21:16 |
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080801/ap_on_re_ca/canada_bus_stabbing
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He said the suspect had the victim on the floor of the bus and "was cutting his head off" with a large hunting knife.
"When he was attacking him, he was calm," said Caton. "There was no rage or anything. He was just like a robot stabbing the guy."
See no human emotion.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 01 Aug 2008 21:17 |
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What took away the natural fear all men have towards murder in this man? Was he de-sentisized by horror movies?
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 01 Aug 2008 21:29 |
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If he or his lawyer wants to claim that watching horror movies could motivate him to do something even remotely as heinous as this, then that should be the case with everyone in general. Any and everyone who takes in a similar amount of horror movies should be exhibiting similar behavior if it was the act of viewing them or becoming desensitized while vieweing them. This is clearly the case as this scumbag is the exception and not the rule.
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Was he de-sentisized by horror movies?
Very possible. It's also very possible he got some bad ideas from watching those films. Fortunately, the fault is ultimately his for acting on those thoughts regardless of where he got them from.
You can look at a pretty woman and imagine anything you like(at least I can)-it's when criminals tell themselves it's alright to attack and rape or kill that woman that there's an actual problem and the actual problem is in their own head. The woman didn't do a thing but look attractive. The criminal had to click off their own filter because there's something wrong there to begin with.
Being desensitized is not a problem or the cause of anything all by itself.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 04 Aug 2008 15:14 |
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I agree that the ultimate blame and punishment belong to the killer, but I also think hollywood shouldn't put out such garbage because over time it will have bad consequences. We humans are a combination of what we choose to put into our minds. You can't tell me that a man that watches horror movies 5 times a week is going to be the same guy a year to two down the line. After a while it's going to start warping his sense of value toward human life.
It's like watching porn. The more a man watches it the more he craves it. It's like a drug addiction for the mind.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 04 Aug 2008 15:52 |
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You can't tell me that a man that watches horror movies 5 times a week is going to be the same guy a year to two down the line.
I didn't. In the same spirit you can't make him an automatic psycho either.
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The more a man watches it the more he craves it.
I'm something of a porn affecionado here. The exact opposite is true. The more you watch it, the less exciting and more laughable it becomes. You become desensitized to titillation on a screen, you don't become a sex fiend.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 04 Aug 2008 19:35 |
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Or maybe it takes more and more to satisfy your craving. I'd say it's not the same for everybody.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 04 Aug 2008 20:17 |
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Or maybe it takes more and more to satisfy your craving
or maybe it doesn't....
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I'd say it's not the same for everybody.
right.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 05 Aug 2008 03:22 |
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That begs the obvious question Pak, if you admittedly become desensitized to it, then why keep watching it?
I remember witnessing to a guy years ago that told me that porn had no effect on him, that he could take it or leave it. But yet he had a huge collection. My question to him was "If you can take it or leave it, why is your choice almost always to take it?"
I think not only can your conscious become seared in repeated exposure to things, but you also lose perspective as to how much your conscience is already seared.
Before I was saved I exposed myself to some of the most vile things the world had to offer. So now, I am extra careful what I expose myself to. Personal choice, mind you.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 05 Aug 2008 03:24 |
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Maybe I should stay out of this, I haven't seen the movie.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 05 Aug 2008 18:45 |
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That begs the obvious question Pak, if you admittedly become desensitized to it, then why keep watching it?
In some cases it could be exactly like Tim said, you gain a hunger for it. I don't believe this to be the norm, but one of the exceptions to the norm. Some people have a collection for the sake of collecting-hoping it might be worth something in the future, that annoying need to complete a collection or even nostalgia's sake.
Some people stick with one type of media because they create the reality for themselves and believe wholeheartedly that this one particular thing defines them. You have diehard metal fans and diehard country fans in the field of music who wouldn't listen to something like opera. They have the unfounded opinion that opera is for old people, gay people or the mentally ill. These people will define themselves by their appreciation of those particular types of music to extremes too. Regardless of how many times you hear the same guitar work or the same type of lyrics or the same composition, they keep buying it or at least buy into it again and again.
Your friend with the large porn collection might actually define some part of himself by it-something he admires in others possibly, something he's making up for a lack of in another part of his life, maybe a sort of badge. It's not having the collection that's the problem, it's why you know about his collection in the first place that might be an issue. I think if he was doing something wrong or shameful with that collection, you wouldn't know anything about it if he could help it.
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Maybe I should stay out of this, I haven't seen the movie.
The issue is bigger than the movie and not reliant on it. It was just the source for the exchange of ideas.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 06 Aug 2008 04:39 |
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Some people stick with one type of media because they create the reality for themselves and believe wholeheartedly that this one particular thing defines them. You have diehard metal fans and diehard country fans in the field of music who wouldn't listen to something like opera. They have the unfounded opinion that opera is for old people, gay people or the mentally ill. These people will define themselves by their appreciation of those particular types of music to extremes too. Regardless of how many times you hear the same guitar work or the same type of lyrics or the same composition, they keep buying it or at least buy into it again and again. I think you are discussing apples and oranges, Pak. Do you think that repeated exposure to harmful or destructive things has no effect on an individual?
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 06 Aug 2008 05:37 |
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Do you think that repeated exposure to harmful or destructive things has no effect on an individual?
That's something of a leading question. It makes the jump that something undesirable to one person is automatically harmful or destructive to another and the only place I would apply this are actually children and the mentally ill.
As for the effects...absolutely everything you hear and see and feel on any given day(especially the stuff you're not consciously aware of) affects you somehow/someway/somewhere. It gets compared to what's already in the stored information and filed neatly away. Our brains really are amazing computers.
There is still no evidence of the immediate causation of negative behavior from media intake. Guys don't become sex fiends from 'too much' porn, but we can observe that exact behavior in someone who is actually deprived of sexual stimulation. (here comes what sounds like a cheap shot-sorry) This can be the one outstanding reason Catholic priests keep making headlines with scandal. Keep in mind that any two seperate people can get exactly the same images and messages and have the same exact background and choose two very diverse reactions to the same situation. There is no absolute here, as usual, but the status quo is that the individual alone is responsible for their behavior, regardless of history, circumstance or scapegoating.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 06 Aug 2008 15:05 |
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Well no offense to Catholics. You all are good people, but pak you are right about the priest thing as far as they go nuts because they don't have a wife to relieve their God given sexual desires with. This will cause most men to go nuts. Now why they go after kids is beyond me. Why not fool around with the local widow? Not that it would be right, but at least it would be somewhat understandable.
And here's the thing that boggles my mind. Why stand on their principle of not having their own wife, and then do something that is more vile and wicked than anything else conceivable by terrorizing a child?
I can't understand it. If they know they are getting hammered in the lust department then they should quit. How do they justify continuing as priests in their thinking. The Bible says to run from sin, so if they are putting themselves in the position of some kind of wicked temptation they should remove themselves from that temptation.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 06 Aug 2008 16:14 |
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How do they justify continuing as priests in their thinking.
It's not all of them, it's not even most. There's a sizable enough number that it can't be called isolated incidents but not enough to be an 'epidemic'.
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The Bible says to run from sin,
To some, to my understanding, temptation is something to be overcome and not necessarily run from.
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Why stand on their principle of not having their own wife, and then do something that is more vile and wicked than anything else conceivable by terrorizing a child?
Why do modern missionaries who see the devastation of aids widespread across Africa still promote the nonuse of condoms in just the hopes of people becoming abstinate while letting them die?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 06 Aug 2008 16:21 |
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Why do modern missionaries who see the devastation of aids widespread across Africa still promote the nonuse of condoms in just the hopes of people becoming abstinate while letting them die?
Boy you really get around. I don't see as the two subjects necessarily matching but I'll address it. It's not a missionaries job to pass out condoms. It's their job to preach about Christ. Marriage is the only safe way to avoid diseases for a society. Telling them it's ok to have sex as long as it's protected is just lying to them. I mean come on missionaries give up a lot. Don't expect them to give up the reason they are doing so which is to preach Jesus Christ. If they wanted to be public school teachers they'd stay in the states.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 06 Aug 2008 16:24 |
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Posts: 4786
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Quote:
To some, to my understanding, temptation is something to be overcome and not necessarily run from. Joseph ran from his boss' wife in Egypt when she tried to tempt him.
I'll give you a good example of why running from sin is important. Do you think a man could stand still in a woman's bedroom while she was naked and trying to seduce him without giving in? Not very long I wouldn't bet, but if he just leaves problem is solved.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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