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| Posted: 31 Jul 2008 11:02 |
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Quote:
Bruce Wayne: I knew the mob wouldn't go down without a fight. But this is different. They crossed the line.
Alfred Pennyworth: You crossed the line first, sir. You squeezed them, you hammered them. And in their desperation they turned to a man they didn't fully understand.
Alfred Pennyworth: When I was in Burma, a long time ago, my friends and I were working for the local Government. They were trying to buy the loyalty of tribal leaders, bribing them with precious stones. But their caravans were being raided in a forest north of Rangoon by a bandit. We were asked to take care of the problem, so we started looking for the stones. But after six months, we couldn't find anyone who had traded with him. One day I found a child playing with a ruby as big as a tangerine. The bandit had been throwing the stones away.
Bruce Wayne: Then why steal them?
Alfred Pennyworth: Because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.
Bruce Wayne: That man in Burma, did you ever catch him?
Alfred Pennyworth: Oh yes.
Bruce Wayne: How?
Alfred Pennyworth: We burned the forest down.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 31 Jul 2008 14:47 |
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I think the best response to this is the scene in Dark Knight Returns when the Sons of the Batman are rantig and raving about how they are going to purge Gotham, and the real Batman shows up and snatches the gun away from the kid and basically says 'Not like this'.
When time permits, I may write more about this, because I really think I understand the heart of the character, just composing my thoughts.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 31 Jul 2008 14:57 |
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A lot of good dialogue in Dark Knight that's for sure.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 31 Jul 2008 21:59 |
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I listed that for a few reasons.
Consider how much Batman affects the lives of everyone around him. He does things, whether you like it or not, whether you understand it or not, without your input as a neighbor or citizen of Gotham. Batman doesn't have a mentor or peer. Batman doesn't seek advice. Batman will tell you how it is and how it's gonna be. He does what he does because of the man beneath the cowl. Without certain factors, Bruce wouldn't be the Batman. Alfred is one of the people that actually shape his character and enable him to be the Batman. He's been the strongest influence on Bruce's life(outside of martial arts training, Lucius' weaponry and Zorro) and his strongest ally, supporter and enabler. What Alfred tells him there is basically to get a thing done you have to do it by any means possible and the ends will justify the means. At least this is the implication of it to me.
The other thing that caught my attention here was that when they dealt with someone who wanted to watch the world burn, they had to give him what he wanted to defeat him by making his world actually burn. Then came the actual visual of Joker burning that rediculous pile of loot. The real impact of Alfred's speech is much later though when Batman has the opportunity to kill Joker first with the 'cycle' on the street and later by dropping him from the building, and refusing to do it either time. Joker wanted the hero to kill him in the hopes of destroying the hero even at the cost of his own life. But heroes don't kill, even when it's the only way to stop the bad guy, which is why the Joker wanted Bats to kill him in the first place. This leads to that rather sobering line of 'We could do this forever' at the end, which personally snapped me back to reality remembering that the actor can't can't do anything forever anymore.
It really is a battered topic to discuss why heroes don't kill which is why I didn't make it it's own topic. Not that it isn't worth talking about anymore.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 31 Jul 2008 22:09 |
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OK, here's the Cliff Notes version of my thoughts on Batman....
First, Superman. He dresses up in colorful clothes and stuff, but he doesn't wear a mask. But in actuality, he does. You see, the real guy isn't the colorfuly festooned crime fighter from Krypton. In his heart of hearts, he's Clark, a big goofy farm kid from Kansas. Clark is at the heart of every decision Superman makes. Superman's power is tempered by Clark's morality. Superman is the mask, he's really Clark from Smallville.
Oh, but Batman. In his heart of hearts, he is Batman, and Bruce Wayne is the mask.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 31 Jul 2008 22:41 |
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There's another one of my favorite old debates from comics-is Superman or Clark the disguise? I'm still on the side that says Clark is the disguise.
With Batman, specifically to this movie: consider that if Harvey had not been subverted he could have walked away from that life altogether, at the very least become a 'legitimate' detective. The actual mask for Bruce would be the billionire playboy male bimbo he portrays to the general public and his night job swallows that whole. Without the need for the night job, the bimbo would disappear and we'd be left with just Bruce the business man, philanthropist, entrepreneur, what have you.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 31 Jul 2008 22:51 |
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Did you ever read the Elseworlds story called Flying Bullets?
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 31 Jul 2008 22:54 |
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in Dark Knight Returns, Batman tells Bruce "You are a rusty cage that cannot hold me"
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 31 Jul 2008 23:54 |
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I think I read Flying Bullets a long long time ago. I used to hunt down the elseworlds stories as they appeared at my local shop alongside the Marvel What If books. Is that the one where Clark becomes Batman?
Quote:
in Dark Knight Returns, Batman tells Bruce "You are a rusty cage that cannot hold me"
The things we become are not necessarily what we always were- Dark Knight Returns takes place after many thresholds and milestones were passed. Look at Clark in the same story.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 01 Aug 2008 02:14 |
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Is that the one where Clark becomes Batman? Not exactly. Kal-El crashes outside Gotham and is found by the Wayne's. Named Bruce, he is there the night they die. All of Kal-El's power without any of Smallville's morals.
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The things we become are not necessarily what we always were- Dark Knight Returns takes place after many thresholds and milestones were passed Obviously the Batman persona grew over the years until it overshadowed Bruce. But I believe that was a relatively easy road to go down because in his heart, Bruce Wayne died when he was 10 years old. He's Batman all the time, but he hides behind the mask of Bruce.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 01 Aug 2008 03:19 |
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Bruce Wayne died when he was 10 years old
Sad, but quite possible, even plausible. The thing is, we always have a choice. He didn't become a vigilante or detective or crimefighter or symbol or mentor or any other thing that Batman might be considered the night his parents died. All those things that make up that character had to be chased after and/or attained. Maybe his parents being murdered in front of him started that pursuit, but he didn't become the outcome automatically.
It's like a story from one of Tony Robbins' books I read a while back about the two kids of a career criminal. One ends up exactly like his father, in and out of jail for most of his adult life, a complete waste to society. The other becomes the opposite by being a lawyer, a pillar of the same society. They were both asked why their lives became what each had and they both gave the same answer- with a father like that, what choice did I have?
Bring in morality, fight or flight, pain and pleasure, hope or hopelessness, vengeance or justice. There's always a choice, even if making none is that choice in that moment.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 01 Aug 2008 15:08 |
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I think Superman is the disguise, and you can go back to the TV show Lois and Clark for that reference. Clark tells Lois that very thing in one episode.
Take Smallville. Is it about Superman or Clark? It's Clark we've been watching all these years. Clark is the one saving lives etc. He's just a guy that grew up on a farm in his spirit. The Superman costume is just a way to get some peace in life. To protect his life as Clark.
Who we are is defined somewhat by our relationships. So keep in mind the relationship Clark has with his parents on earth was always good. He has no need to abandon that part of his life. He embraces the Kent persona because he embraces his childhood.
Something I heard on documentary about the Dark Knight's psychology said that we all have different identities in a way. I agree. We act one way to our parents, one way to our spouse, another to our co-workers, etc. All the same person, but different identities as the spouse, employee, parent, etc etc whatever the case might be.
In the case of Batman, the Dark Knight is just one part of Bruce Wayne that was created at the time of his parents murder. Perhaps it was born into him, but wasn't necessary to surface to that tragic moment in his life.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 01 Aug 2008 18:03 |
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Clark's still an alien pretending to be human in an effort to protect his earth parents and his wife. One could say both Clark and Superman are the masks in reality of him really being Kal-El. It's all about perspective.
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we all have different identities in a way
Absolutely.
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Perhaps it was born into him, but wasn't necessary to surface to that tragic moment in his life.
Interesting observation. I wonder what Bruce would have become if his parents weren't murdered. His dad was so into trying to eliminate the poverty situation that their family could go broke before Bruce grows up. Maybe his parents fall into the criminal element through chance or necessity and Bruce is raised in a criminal environment. There's a lot of ways to go with this.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 01 Aug 2008 19:52 |
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If his parents were criminals and say got shot down by a police officer then with his mentality it would be likely that he would go against the police as an adult.
Alfred also plays into it by helping him grow the rest of the way up in the same kind of morality his parents instilled within him...like putting such a high value on life etc.
As he grows up he relates all criminal activity with the force that took away his parents. Thus his determination grows as the years go by.
I write this like Batman really exists or something I know.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 01 Aug 2008 19:54 |
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Quote:
I write this like Batman really exists or something I know
Thinking on things like these is how writers create their stories. It's a good thing, I promise.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 01 Aug 2008 20:05 |
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Oh I keep day dreaming about stories for my Deadlaw and Time-Rider comics I've got online at superherouniverse.com but I haven't had enough time to get to them.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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