Quote: Gay people should not be defined as a race.
You're the only one here suggesting they should. You tried to do a logical no-no there by assigning qualities of one group to another and then apply the limitations of the second to the first. Please cut it out.
Quote: It's a nutty political movement
Unless you can show some decent causes of how they're a political movement in the first place, you need to shut down the straw man factory. Show me how they are actually capable of disturbing autority and order as that is what a political movement does. Once you show how they're a political movement, show the logical and probable results of their disturbance.
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You are working far too hard at avoiding this.
In the simplest possible terms, it doesn't even have to include gay people. You can address the political thing or not. For right now just stick with this, as this is what I've been talking about all along.
Why should non-Christians live under Christian laws and/or standards?
If we must go back and include the gays again: Why should there be laws against them? Real reasons for real laws this time please.
Either one or both or feel free to add the political part. You choose. Please stop steering the conservation off the path into the silly wilderness. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 19 Aug 2008 21:50
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Geez bro, my side hasn't been trying to create new laws now have we? It's your side that has the burden of proof. The gay movment wants new laws, and you want to change existing laws allowing adoption for gays, gay marriage, gay work benefits, and on and on and on.
If gays aren't a race then the gay activist argument flies out the window. All of their arguments hinge on the idea they are born that way, and can't help themselves. That's why I keep sticking to my guns here.
You don't have to even be a Christian to not want special accommodations and changes to existing laws just for this relatively new movement. It's a political power grab backed by a whole lot of dough.
See you really could split this into two segments. What people do in the privacy of their own homes, and what an entire political movement is trying to change based on what those people do behind closed doors.
And once the money runs out, they'll be another political gimmick just waiting around the corner. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 20 Aug 2008 01:27
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Why should non-Christians live under Christian laws and/or standards? __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 20 Aug 2008 03:31
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This is/was a society based on Christian themes and traditional moral values. __________________
"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
Posted: 20 Aug 2008 03:36
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Quote: This is/was a society based on Christian themes and traditional moral values.
I have to say this is absolutely not true. Christians were definitely a big part of founding this nation but we have never been a 'Christian nation'. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 20 Aug 2008 03:44
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A lot of our rules were founded on Christian beliefs. __________________
"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
Posted: 20 Aug 2008 03:52
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Quote: A lot of our rules were founded on Christian beliefs.
If you want to say our original laws were based on the ten commandments, this is a bit of misinformation as well. The first four only deal within your churches, having nothing to do with law or ethics. Homicide, theft and perjury are definitely important to society but have existed in cultures older than Moses and if in common society we honored not coveting anything our economy would completely collapse.
Were you referring to anything outside the commandments? __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 20 Aug 2008 03:52
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Quote: Why should non-Christians live under Christian laws and/or standards?
I would so love to chase that rabbit, but I have a hard enough time staying on topic as it is.
Ahem...
Part 2 of my venture into Topic That Will Not Die
Now there are rights you have and rights you don't have. You do not have the right to free food or health care, although we live in an age that seems determined to manufacture imaginary rights without marrying them to any sort of responsibility. Sorry, that's a whole 'nother topic.
Where was I? Rights. I will even allow that within the jurisdiction of human governments, you are or should be free to pursue just about any consensual relationship your heart desires.
But where we as a society have absolutely gone bonkers is the insanity in saying that all relationships should be afforded equal status. All relationships are not equal. This isn't discriminatory in the kneejerk PC way that the word is used currently, but it does acknowledge the obvious truth that things that are different are not the same.
Want some examples? Well, wait for installment 3.
See why I took so long to get involved in this? __________________
1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Posted: 20 Aug 2008 03:55
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Quote: See why I took so long to get involved in this?
I'll wait for installment 3 then. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 20 Aug 2008 14:23
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Quote: Why should non-Christians live under Christian laws and/or standards?
Why should non-liberals live under liberal standards and laws? __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 20 Aug 2008 14:46
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Quote: Why should non-liberals live under liberal standards and laws?
Great question-answer mine first. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 20 Aug 2008 15:42
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I did, I'm saying it's probably the same reason only probably using backwards liberal logic. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 20 Aug 2008 17:46
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It's not exactly a small problem here and yes, the answers are identical. Would you please, just for my personal awareness, admit it already? I'd like to see it in print. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 20 Aug 2008 18:27
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Look for the record I will tell you my own personal view of how my Christianity effects my politics in as short an answer I can give.
My morality is tied in with what I believe God teaches in the Bible. It's my foundation for morals. Now for me to disconnect my religion from my politics would be to disconnect my morality from my politics. We all know the last thing we need in politics especially our politicians is to have their morality disconnected from their actions. We got enough of that already in both parties. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 20 Aug 2008 18:36
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Nobody should ever suggest you disconnect your beliefs or your morality from any other section of your life. Just as my more independant notions about the universe and my place in it can not be seperatd from any other thought or piece of my existance except by my own free choice. This isn't about who you vote for or why or who I vote for or why- the country does not belong to just you or I. Please answer it already.
Why should non-Christians live under Christian laws and/or standards? __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 20 Aug 2008 22:39
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Quote: Why should non-Christians live under Christian laws and/or standards?
Because this country was founded by Christians!!!
(I might can do better than that, but right now that's the angle I'm going to attack this from.)
When the framers created the Constitution, they based it off of the book of Genesis. (If you don't know what i mean, I can elaborate.) Our goverment came from their moral and religious beliefs. __________________
"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
Posted: 20 Aug 2008 22:53
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[
Quote: Because this country was founded by Christians!!!
So, according to you there were no Deists or non-believers at all? Not true.
Quote: When the framers created the Constitution, they based it off of the book of Genesis.
This should be fun-go ahead and elaborate. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 20 Aug 2008 23:09
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Hey Steve, by any chance did Tim lend you a book on this? __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 21 Aug 2008 00:37
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Quote: Hey Steve, by any chance did Tim lend you a book on this?
What?
Quote: So, according to you there were no Deists or non-believers at all? Not true.
Deists yeah, but they were believers in God nonetheless.
They based our government on Genesis in this way: Our Constitution was embodied with the view of human nature that all men were born in sin. And they needed the government to keep people in place. Checks and balances. Example, look at Adam and Eve. __________________
"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
Posted: 21 Aug 2008 01:44
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Quote: Deists yeah, but they were believers in God nonetheless.
Deists aren't Christian and don't believe in any Abrahamic god.
Quote: the view of human nature that all men were born in sin.
There is no mention of God, Jesus, Christianity or sin anywhere in this document. If it was meant to imply that all men are created with sin, it would have said so. It clearly doesn't. If it were even implied that the nation was created solely by or for Christian interests, it would have mentioned this. It clearly doesn't. There were religious reasons amongst others that were concerns for the founding fathers, but they weren't strictly religious reasons. The only mentions of religion in it are strictly prohibitive.
You have no religious test for public office or trust in article six and the restrictions on congress in the first amendment. There's one oath, for the president, and it has no mention of swearing on a bible or saying 'so help me God'.
Also, like it or don't, there was the treaty with Tripoli in 1797 which stated very clearly 'the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion'. Approved by the Senate under John Adams while Washington was President.
What else ya got? __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 21 Aug 2008 02:47
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Quote: Deists aren't Christian and don't believe in any Abrahamic god.
Deism is the belief that God created us, but left us alone and doesn't interfere with our lives.
I'd like to argue with you on this subject further, but I am afraid I can't right now; I'm not an expert on history, and I was only told about the genesis influencing the Constitution by a friend that has read five or six books on the topic; I don't have any evidence to support what I have said, so I will leave it at that for now. __________________
"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
Posted: 21 Aug 2008 03:15
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Quote: Deism is the belief that God created us
Ok, let me clarify. They don't believe in a personal god of any sort. That discounts God, or YHWH or Yehovah or Allah or whichever name you like-for the most part, they don't deny it's possibly the same but it's not the general consensus. The entity they believe in appears to have nothing to do with the entity you believe in.
John L Armstrong is a deist and does many vids on YT. Here's one about deism specifically countering mystical properties in the Bible.
__________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 21 Aug 2008 04:53
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Part 3 of however many parts I wind up doing...
I have a brother who isn't my brother. I didn't have a brother when I was growing up an so my best friend in high school spent as much time at my house as I did and I kind of adopted him. I have been referring to him as 'my brother Carlton' for almost 20 years now. Both of our families acknowledge this as just one of my eccentricities and tolerate it as a token of the unique relationship I and my 'brother' have. Carlton has 3 actual brothers.
Now, 'brother' is at it's root, a biological designation, and although I have this closeness to my brother, we are not by definition brothers. But I am not trying to make anyone treat us as such so this peculiar designation I've given him is simply that, a harmless and sort of meaningless designation for a unique relationship. The friendship we have is not the same as a brotherhood. it may be deeper or closer than some brothers are, but mere time and commitment and closeness does not transform my DNA to make us brothers. we are not brothers and if a situation arose where family decisions had to be made, I would have to stand aside because I am after all, not family. It would be rude and silly for me to stomp around and demand to be included screaming "But I consider myself his brother! you have to honor that!" My opinion does not change the basic definition of the word or the inherent limitations of the concept of 'brother'.
Now if I wanted to I could embark on a quest to change the legal definition of brother and force everyone to include 'best friends since high school' to the definition. I could use the weight and momentum of the legal system to force people to kowtow to my expanded definition. By removing it from its biological designation, however happy I made have made myself in my quixotic quest, I have made the word essentially meaningless.
And yes I am aware that 'wife' and 'husband' are not biological designations. But I'm not done with my examples. I intend to prove through a handful of examples from different angles, that all relationships are not equal and do not carry with them the same privileges or even the same definitions. Be patient, part 4 is on it's way. __________________
1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Posted: 21 Aug 2008 05:11
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I'm nothing if not patient. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 21 Aug 2008 16:10
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Quote: Why should non-Christians live under Christian laws and/or standards?
Ok well let me ask you this pak. Should we get rid of the laws against murder, rape, stealing, fraud, etc because the Bible calls these things sins?
By your logic everything that could be listed as a Christian standard should not be adhered to, correct? __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 21 Aug 2008 19:09
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Quote: Should we get rid of the laws against murder, rape, stealing, fraud, etc because the Bible calls these things sins?
No.
Quote: everything that could be listed as a Christian standard should not be adhered to
Stop twisting it, distorting it, avoiding it and otherwise playing with it to find some 'safe' way of attacking it and answer it already, please. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 21 Aug 2008 20:12
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I did.
Quote: Why should non-Christians live under Christian laws and/or standards?
Because stealing, murder, rape, and all the rest are wrong.
Christian values like hard work, honesty, love, compassion, etc are all good. That's at least one reason I can think of.
Why are you against these values? Why must you spend all your time trying to demonize Christian values when kids in our schools need these values more than ever. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 21 Aug 2008 22:08
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We have laws against slavery which we know is wrong, but your Bible doesn't. It actually helps you feel better about owning them and some passages look like they come straight from an owners manual.
We have laws against pedophilia which we all know is wrong, not just Christians know it is wrong. Go ahead and comb through all the myriad possible things that are wrong to have sex with in your good book and find one that mentions children. There isn't one. You can't touch a woman having her period, but diddling kids is just fine since there isn't a prohibition on it.
Our society has laws against pedophiles and slavery which the Bible does not-why?
Quote: Why are you against these values?
Stop being an asshole. That's all that deserves. Knock it off. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 21 Aug 2008 22:51
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Quote: We have laws against slavery which we know is wrong, but your Bible doesn't. It actually helps you feel better about owning them and some passages look like they come straight from an owners manual.
So when you read the Bible, did you skip over the part with Moses?
Read I Timothy 1: 9 and 10. __________________
"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
Posted: 21 Aug 2008 23:28
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Quote: So when you read the Bible, did you skip over the part with Moses?
You'll have to explain how that says to adhere to Christian laws, ignore or overwrite other passages in the book, or answer my question either.
Let me be plain about this. Tim, I think Steve Rogers here is you. He happened to appear at just the right time so you would have an extra avoidance tactic at your disposal and how very convenient, he sounds just like you. He even uses an old actor as an avatar-just like you.
Steve, if you do happen to be another person, enjoy the board.
I'm killing this convo-at least my part in it. Some people aren't grown up enough to discuss it.(over a full week of games and avoidances and what looks like a made up second account just to comfort you-that's incredibly sad).
You're off the hook Tim. You know the answer and so do I. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
