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| Posted: 22 Aug 2008 02:08 Last Edited By: Steve Rogers |
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over a full week of games and avoidances and what looks like a made up second account just to comfort you-that's incredibly sad).
I'm laughing my head off over here.
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I'm killing this convo-at least my part in it. Some people aren't grown up enough to discuss it
No, I'm not finished with you yet.
The Bible denounces slavery as sin. It even goes as far as putting slave traders in the same category as murderers, adulterers, liars, and perverts. While the Bible as a whole recognizes the reality of slavery, it never promotes the practice of it. In fact, it was the application of biblical principles that ultimately led to the overthrow of slavery in ancient Israel and the U.S.
"Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you--although if you can gain your freedom, do so. For he who was a slave when he was called by the Lord is the Lord's freedman; similarily, he who was a free man when he was called is Christ's slave. You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men."
I Corinthians 7:21-23
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 22 Aug 2008 03:04 |
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No, I'm not finished with you yet.
As if you have a choice in the matter. Quaint.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 22 Aug 2008 03:12 |
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I notice you don't seem to have much to say.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 22 Aug 2008 03:41 |
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Oh ok. Since you were laughing your head off...
Here ya go.
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And he [Noah] said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
Gen 9:25-27
And he said, Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai. And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.
Gen 16:8-9
And the LORD hath blessed my master [Abraham] greatly; and he is become great: and he hath given him flocks, and herds, and silver, and gold, and menservants, and maidservants, and camels, and asses. And Sarah my master's wife bare a son to my master when she was old: and unto him hath he given all that he hath.
Gen 24:35-36
Then Isaac sowed in that land, and received in the same year an hundredfold: and the LORD blessed him. And the man waxed great, and went forward, and grew until he became very great: For he had possession of flocks, and possession of herds, and great store of servants.
Gen 26:12-14
But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof.
Ex 12:44
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
Ex 20:17
If a man smite his servant or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand, he shall be surely punished; notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished, for he is his money.
Ex 21:20-21
And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake. And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.
Ex 21:26-27
If the ox shall push a manservant or a maidservant; he shall give unto their master thirty shekels of silver.
Ex 21:32
If a thief ... have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft
Ex 22:2-3.
And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free.
Lev 19:20
If the priest buy any soul with his money....
Lev 22:11
And if thy brother that dwelleth by thee be waxen poor, and be sold unto thee....
Lev 25:39
Thy bond-men and thy bond-maids which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you: of them shall ye buy bond-men and bond-maids. Moreover, of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land. And they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession, they shall be your bond-man forever.
Lev 25:44-46
Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour's.
Deut 5:21
And if thy brother, an Hebrew man, or an Hebrew woman be sold unto thee....
Deut 15:12
When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it. And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee.
Deut 20:10-11
But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself.
Deut 20:14
Now therefore ye are cursed, and there shall none of you be freed from being bondmen, and hewers of wood and drawers of water for the house of my God.
Joshua 9:23
The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luke 12:46-47
But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat? And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink? Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
Luke 17:7-9
Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather. For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.
1 Cor 7:21-22
Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God.
Ephesians 6:5
Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ.
Colossians 3:22
Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven.
Colossians 4:1
Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort. If any man teach otherwise ... he is proud, knowing nothing.... From such withdraw thyself.
1 Tim 6:1-5
Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God.
Titus 2:9-10
I wanted to call it 'Slavery for dummies-the King of Kings edition'-too much?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 22 Aug 2008 03:56 |
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There is a difference between servants and slaves. You didn't comment on what I said.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 22 Aug 2008 04:06 |
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There is a difference between servants and slaves.
Every one of those passages refers to slaves. You are going to try and tell me you don't know what manservants and maidservants are? Really? You're going to preach at me from a source I obviously don't believe in to prove yourself right when you're either not aware of what it means or are just lying about the meaning? Are you kidding?
As for the quote you gave, I listed it too. Paul was telling the slaves not to want freedom, to just not worry about it-they were really slaves to Jesus and that's much better. What a guy.
There are a number of condemnations in your good book as well but there's one important thing to keep in mind. When Jesus tells the slaves directly to obey their master as they would obey Him and God-that's the final word. There's no miracle save later, no apology, no punchline, no saving roll. Basically, the son of God told them that his dad knows they're slaves and that's just fine by him as long as they treat their masters just like Him and its how he wanted it.
Is that enough of a comment for you?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 22 Aug 2008 04:14 |
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I'm going to look those quotes up, and I will get back to you.
By the way, do you still believe that I'm Tim?
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 22 Aug 2008 04:29 |
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By the way, do you still believe that I'm Tim?
If you're not then it's some pretty unfortunate timing on your part and you do have my apology for the mistake.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 22 Aug 2008 04:37 Last Edited By: Steve Rogers |
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If you're not then it's some pretty unfortunate timing on your part and you do have my apology for the mistake.
It's all right...but Tim might be offended though!
And about my avatar that you mentioned earlier: I chose this one because he happens to be my favorite actor and he is a reflection of my beliefs morally, religiously, and politically.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 22 Aug 2008 04:44 |
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Tim has offended me plenty. It's fair play at this point.
By that standard my avatar would be George Carlin.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 22 Aug 2008 18:45 |
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We have laws against slavery which we know is wrong, but your Bible doesn't. It actually helps you feel better about owning them and some passages look like they come straight from an owners manual.
We have laws against pedophilia which we all know is wrong, not just Christians know it is wrong. Go ahead and comb through all the myriad possible things that are wrong to have sex with in your good book and find one that mentions children. There isn't one. You can't touch a woman having her period, but diddling kids is just fine since there isn't a prohibition on it.
Our society has laws against pedophiles and slavery which the Bible does not-why?
I've addressed the slave thing a while back already. Any sex that doesn't involve a man and woman in marriage is wrong according to the Bible. Adultery pretty much covers it all.
And, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" pretty much covers slavery and everything else smarty pants. I want you to know I'm sticking my tounge out at you big time. And rolling my eyes.
Let me ask you exactly what do atheists do when they need to know what is right and wrong? I know you'll have a 5 mile long answer that basically boils down to a good guess.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 22 Aug 2008 20:22 |
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Tim I owe you an apology for unjust harshness a few posts back. Exactly what I said I would avoid. We cannot do that anymore and we do need some sort of consensus on some very vital things.
I asked you a question without establishing the premises behind it first, and assumed you should reach the single answer I reach when I ask it of myself. Disaster on my behalf. You avoided even answering it honestly for whatever your reasons. Disaster on you. Learned my lesson on both. I'm still not 100% convinced Steve is another person-for better or worse.
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I've addressed the slave thing a while back already.
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Any sex that doesn't involve a man and woman in marriage is wrong according to the Bible. Adultery pretty much covers it all.
"do unto others as you would have them do unto you" pretty much covers slavery
Poor apologetics, but you're certainly entitled to them. That's how you tried to explain it all away for slavery and now for pedophilia. Your excuses aren't wishing them away-sorry.
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what do atheists do when they need to know what is right and wrong?
Think and decide. What do you do differently?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 22 Aug 2008 22:37 |
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Tim, Steve...sigh...it is unfortunate the way you've handled this. Let me get through my multi-part explanation and I may tackle this thorny subject...
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 23 Aug 2008 03:40 |
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what do atheists do when they need to know what is right and wrong?
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Think and decide. What do you do differently?
First of all, Christians like myself have God as a basis for moral foundation. What do atheists have? Nothing. One of the biggest moral problems is temptation. And it is very difficult for an atheist to fight temptation. Because, to an atheist, why should they fight it at all? They have no one looking over their shoulder, nothing is holding them back. Atheism is an excuse to do whatever you want, whenever you want, and however you want. Atheism is the view of life without retrictions.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 23 Aug 2008 04:17 |
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Christians like myself
(a)are arrogant and judgmental.
(b)can't answer direct questions.
(c)assert their views on others to pump themselves up.
(d)don't have a clue as to what they're talking about.
(e)should be a little less disrespectful to people they've supposedly just met, especially if they'll get around to crying about intolerance in a little bit-I'm sure you won't disappoint.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 23 Aug 2008 05:17 |
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Since you are quoting the phrase where I said "myself", I can only assume you were referring to me. I don't know how you can say I am arrogant and judgemental. About the other ones, I understand why you you say such things, but they are not true. I answer your questions, I know what I'm talking about (I wouldn't be here if i didn't know anything about faith and politics), and I didn't say anything with the intention of "pumping myself up". And as for 'e', my guess is, you are offended by my remarks in the above post. And if that's the case, tell me, did they not hit the mark?
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 23 Aug 2008 05:26 |
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Pak, let me run this past you.. and no this is not part 4...you get your morality from the same place I do, a hard-wired sense of right and wrong installed by your Creator. Now I believe that that basic conscience is amplified and codified further by the Bible. I also think that your morality is subject to slight modification (even nullification) by your environment and upbringing and personal choices. I also think it is quite possible for you to be better at following your conscience than I am, and hence be a more moral person. I think there are two main points where you and I would differ. The first point is on the origin of this conscience, and the second point would be on the ultimate accountability for violations of this conscience by our Creator.
What do you think?
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 23 Aug 2008 06:15 |
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I can only assume you were referring to me
I returned the volley of blanket generalizations about 'Christians like you' Steve, just like you launched about atheists like me. The last one is exactly about you, and well deserved.
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you get your morality from the same place I do, a hard-wired sense of right and wrong installed by your Creator.
Same place-yes/ Creator-no.
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I also think that your morality is subject to slight modification (even nullification) by your environment and upbringing and personal choices.
Absolutely the 'where' for where they come from. Finally.
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the origin of this conscience,
Survival, acceptance, the golden rule, sympathy, experiences/perceptions of pain and pleasure and being a pack animal to begin with are good places to start looking.
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ultimate accountability for violations of this conscience by our Creator.
Still null. Why do the consequences have to be strictly 'ultimate' to be avoided or chased after? They don't.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 23 Aug 2008 06:33 |
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I'd like to state that in the above posts, I talked about atheists and temptation, while you retialated with down-talking our character traits. So here's how it is according to the last few posts:
While an atheist can do whatever--and i do mean whatever--he is tempted to do, a Christian can avoid direct questions, be arrogant, judgemental, and disrespectful.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 23 Aug 2008 06:46 |
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Before i forget to add this later, let me get back to the gay debate. PFOX. Ever heard of it? Its an organization for reformed homos. So if people can stop being gay, that means it was never really a born trait in the first place, right? And that also means being gay was indeed a choice--because if they can stop being homosexual, that's a choice too.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 23 Aug 2008 07:28 |
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So if people can stop being gay, that means it was never really a born trait in the first place, right?
That would seem to be true. Now show the therapy actually working and you might have something. That would be empirical evidence from scientific trials, not an opinion from focus on the family or similar sources.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 23 Aug 2008 07:53 |
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I talked about atheists and temptation, while you retialated with down-talking our character traits.
Your blanket assertions were sermon soundbites and just not true. You were down-talking about 'us' first. Let's look at your snobbery again.
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Christians like myself have God as a basis for moral foundation. What do atheists have? Nothing. One of the biggest moral problems is temptation. And it is very difficult for an atheist to fight temptation. Because, to an atheist, why should they fight it at all? They have no one looking over their shoulder, nothing is holding them back. Atheism is an excuse to do whatever you want, whenever you want, and however you want. Atheism is the view of life without retrictions.
Having God as a basis is not enough to make someone moral. There's quite a bit you're either not aware of or just leaving out.
Atheists are not a group in the first place-there is only one thing that applies to all of us-the lack of belief part. No other blanket statement or trait holds any water for all of us or none of us or just any of us.
You then claim that anyone without YOUR God as a basis has no moral foundation whatsoever. Clearly you're making a mistake about what morals and/or their foundations are.
Ah, temptation. If having God as a moral foundation were enough to resist temptation, Kent Hovind wouldn't be in jail, Ted Haggard wouldn't have been caught with his meth dealing gay prostitute boyfriend, and the Pope wouldn't be contending with the priest sex scandal cover-up.
Next is how atheists must be running around doing whatever they please, which is a continuation of being mistaken about morality in the first place. I'll also remind you that you are in fact doing exactly what you please by choosing to follow and adhere to your faith.
---------------------------------
How's your study with the slavery quotes going?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 23 Aug 2008 16:24 |
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Why do the consequences have to be strictly 'ultimate' to be avoided or chased after? They don't. By ultimate I mean 'final', the idea being that there is no higher judgment or scrutiny than God's.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 23 Aug 2008 17:42 |
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That would seem to be true. Now show the therapy actually working and you might have something. That would be empirical evidence from scientific trials, not an opinion from focus on the family or similar sources.
I'll look into it.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 23 Aug 2008 18:44 |
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By ultimate I mean 'final', the idea being that there is no higher judgment or scrutiny than God's.
Right. That's something that affects why you might or might not do things, but it's certainly not the only reason, and certainly not a reason at all for someone who doesn't believe the same beliefs. I would go so far as to suggest it's not necessaily a good enough reason to affect your judgment at all.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 23 Aug 2008 18:59 |
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Your blanket assertions were sermon soundbites and just not true. You were down-talking about 'us' first.
I'll never deny I didn't downtalk you. I'll even admit that what i said about atheists was far worse than what you said about Christians. When I said "I talked about atheists and temptation, while you retialated with down-talking our character traits" and "While an atheist can do whatever--and i do mean whatever--he is tempted to do, a Christian can avoid direct questions, be arrogant, judgemental, and disrespectful" I was comparing my words with yours, proving that atheists can be much much less moral than Christians.
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You then claim that anyone without YOUR God as a basis has no moral foundation whatsoever.
No, just the fact that a person has any god, provides evidence of some moral foundation.
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Ah, temptation. If having God as a moral foundation were enough to resist temptation,
But it is not enough! God is the moral foundation, but you need more than that to resist temptation. You need willpower. You need to have the right faith in Jesus Christ that he is there for you.
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I'll also remind you that you are in fact doing exactly what you please by choosing to follow and adhere to your faith.
I'm sorry, man, but that was just lame. Come on, you could have done better than that! Believing in God is totally different than doing whatever the heck one wants. (I'm not giving any ezamples of "whatever the heck one wants" so that I can leave it to the imagination.)
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 23 Aug 2008 19:02 |
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Oh, and I almost forgot:
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How's your study with the slavery quotes going?
To be honest, I haven't even bothered to look at them yet. I've been real busy lately.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 23 Aug 2008 19:39 Last Edited By: pakratmak |
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proving that atheists can be much much less moral than Christians.
You're pitting a group against a non-group. Barring semantics about 'true' Christians, can one Christian be more or less moral than another? The answer should be yes, and if so, that means you go individual by individual for a comparison. Your results in that contest are also strictly based on the yardstick you're measuring by. Your claim is hollow advertising and as such, doesn't prove anything except that you've been fed bad info and latched onto it as 'truth'.
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just the fact that a person has any god, provides evidence of some moral foundation.
See my previous statement about Ted Haggard and Kent Hovind.
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but you need more than that to resist temptation
No. I really don't. Maybe you think YOU need it, but if this is actually true, it's only because you've made it so for yourself(I realise it was probably constantly reinforced by those around you, but you make the choice to believe it and another choice in how to live accordingly to it). If I actually need some proof here of what I speak of-I quit smoking all on my own, after almost 20 years. Tim says he quit smoking too, but he gives away all the credit to God. We both did the same thing, but Tim, to me, is just not taking the credit for his own deed here. I don't need God to resist temptation.
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Believing in God is totally different than doing whatever the heck one wants.
You're denying your free will exists then?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 24 Aug 2008 00:03 |
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Administrator
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Posts: 4786
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Poor apologetics, but you're certainly entitled to them. That's how you tried to explain it all away for slavery and now for pedophilia. Your excuses aren't wishing them away-sorry.
Ok I'm in a hurry just got a few minutes. It's easy to know that these things you've mentioned pak are wrong by simply applying the basic principles the Bible teaches. I'm sure you know a lot of Christians were part of the reason slavery was outlawed. Did you see Amazing Grace the movie?
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 24 Aug 2008 00:08 |
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Posts: 474
Join Date: Aug 2008
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I quit smoking all on my own, after almost 20 years. Tim says he quit smoking too, but he gives away all the credit to God. We both did the same thing, but Tim, to me, is just not taking the credit for his own deed here. I don't need God to resist temptation.
I never smoked, so I can't add my own personal expierence to this. You fought temptation because you knew smoking was bad for you, right? You did the smart thing and helped yourself. You don't need God to be smart.
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You're denying your free will exists then?
What i mean is, my faith limits the things that I would do. Atheism is like what I said before, a life without any restrictions.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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