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| Posted: 24 Aug 2008 01:59 |
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I'm sure you know a lot of Christians were part of the reason slavery was outlawed
History says different.
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You fought temptation because you knew smoking was bad for you, right? You did the smart thing and helped yourself. You don't need God to be smart.
Thanks for acknowledging that I fought temptation successfully without God.
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Atheism is like what I said before, a life without any restrictions.
Atheism is the lack of a belief in a god or gods and that's it. Your statement here is what they call a false dichotomy. You've set it up so it's your faith or nothing-completely false for anyone who isn't you.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 24 Aug 2008 02:22 |
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History says different.
No, it doesn't.
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You've set it up so it's your faith or nothing-completely false for anyone who isn't you.
That's kind of the way God sees it, you know. Its Him or hell. But when I say atheism is a life without restrictions, i mean it is a way of life where you make your own rules and your own morals.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 24 Aug 2008 02:55 |
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No, it doesn't.
Let's see- I can look at the Emancipation Proclamation during the Civil War and the 13th Amendment-both secular in nature. You're using what exaclty to counter this?
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That's kind of the way God sees it, you know.
I love when you guys think you can actually speak for God. It's so prideful.
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But when I say atheism is a life without restrictions, i mean it is a way of life where you make your own rules and your own morals.
What you just said is actually not a problem, and like it or not, something you have done and will do again the future yourself. I'm very sure you haven't thought through the topic of morality very thoroghly-if you have it's nowhere evident in your posts.
Keeping that in mind-tell me in your own words what you think morality is.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 24 Aug 2008 04:23 |
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Let's see- I can look at the Emancipation Proclamation during the Civil War and the 13th Amendment-both secular in nature. You're using what exaclty to counter this?
Okay, I'll just copy and paste one of my earlier posts: "it was the application of biblical principles that ultimately led to the overthrow of slavery in ancient Israel and the U.S." Israel's liberation from slavery in Egypt became the model for the liberation of slaves in general.
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Keeping that in mind-tell me in your own words what you think morality is.
Morality is right and wrong.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 24 Aug 2008 04:25 |
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I forgot to add earlier about our temptation argument. Your smoking problem was a health issue, not a moral one, and it is a battle that can be won without God.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 24 Aug 2008 04:42 |
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Israel's liberation from slavery in Egypt became the model for the liberation of slaves in general.
Something more substantial than opinion please. I'm not just going to take your word for it alone as a direct contradiction to historical fact as provided by the amendment and the proclamation.
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Your smoking problem
It wasn't a problem. I had no health issue because of it. It was a temptation. One I conquered. On my own. Stop moving the goalposts.
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Morality is right and wrong.
If that's your full answer, there's the problem. I'll give you the opportunity to expand on it before I comment further.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 24 Aug 2008 05:22 |
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Something more substantial than opinion please. I'm not just going to take your word for it alone as a direct contradiction to historical fact as provided by the amendment and the proclamation.
I actaully got that from a book, but from where he got it, I don't know.
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It wasn't a problem. I had no health issue because of it. It was a temptation. One I conquered. On my own. Stop moving the goalposts.
Okay. Maybe your reasons to fight the temptation wasn't about your health, but whatever it was, it wasn't because you felt it was wrong to smoke. Right?
Morality is what I believe is right and what is wrong. Prostitution for example. I say its wrong. it goes against my morals. That may not be the best definition, but its all I got.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 24 Aug 2008 06:44 |
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I actaully got that from a book, but from where he got it, I don't know.
Your argument about the application of biblical principals eliminating slavery just went byebye then. Speaking of ancient Egypt though, have you heard of Hammurabi?
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Maybe your reasons to fight the temptation..
My reasons to fight it don't affect whether or not it was or is a temptation.
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Prostitution for example. I say its wrong.
We're moving in the right direction finally-why do you believe it's wrong? It might just be a passage from the bible or there might be several sources-name as many as you can think of.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 24 Aug 2008 18:12 |
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Your argument about the application of biblical principals eliminating slavery just went byebye then. Speaking of ancient Egypt though, have you heard of Hammurabi?
No it hasn't yet. I can research the matter. And no, I haven't heard of Hammurabi.
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My reasons to fight it don't affect whether or not it was or is a temptation.
But you did have a reason. Right? There are sins out there in which you wouldn't have a reason (like your health, for example) to fight the temptation except for the fact that it may be what some consider morally wrong. So why fight it?
This is a difficult question to answer. I'll admit that I always thought prostiution was wrong, even before I was told that it was, or read it in the Bible. This is hard for me to explain. I just knew it was bad. Women selling their bodies in exchange for money...I mean, that just sounds wrong, doesn't it? But now to look at this in a religious light: God made sex sacred. Right? Well when women use it for money, that makes the act even worse. It desacrelizes sex. For right now, this is the closest passage I could find: "Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves." Romans, 1:24. If you continue to read on from that point, you will see why Christians are against homosexuality as well. This chapters goes on to list other sins.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
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| Posted: 24 Aug 2008 18:45 |
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I can research the matter.
Indeed.(but until you do...you probably shouldn't make any more claims on it)
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But you did have a reason. Right?
I ended a temptation. Something you claimed is not possible to do as I would have no reason to. Now I do have a reason. You're going in circles.
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I just knew it was bad.
There you go. It is that simple. You knew something was wrong before someone pointed out why-you made a moral judgment right there. Do you understand now how you could make a moral judgment before you applied a religious light to it? There's a more complex explanation which I can show by example, and there's just the much simpler reality of a person 'just knowing'. Let me know if you'd like to try the complex one.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 24 Aug 2008 18:51 Last Edited By: pakratmak |
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I haven't heard of Hammurabi.
From wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammurabi
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Hammurabi (Akkadian from Amorite ˤAmmurāpi, "the kinsman is a healer," from ˤAmmu, "paternal kinsman," and Rāpi, "healer"; (ca. 1795 – 1750 BC middle chronology) was the sixth king of Babylon. He became the first king of the Babylonian Empire, extending Babylon's control over Mesopotamia by winning a series of wars against neighboring kingdoms. Although his empire controlled all of Mesopotamia at the time of his death, his successors were unable to maintain his empire.
Hammurabi is known for the set of laws called Hammurabi's Code, one of the first written codes of law in recorded history. These laws were written on a stone tablet standing over six feet tall that was found in 1901. Owing to his reputation in modern times as an ancient law-giver, Hammurabi's portrait is in many government buildings throughout the world.
That code is over 1700 years older than Jesus.
Take a look. You might spot some familiar things on it.
http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/CODE.HTM
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 24 Aug 2008 18:57 |
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I ended a temptation. Something you claimed is not possible to do as I would have no reason to. Now I do have a reason. You're going in circles.
Are you telling me that you stopped smoking..but not because you knew it was an unhealthy lifestyle?
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There you go. It is that simple. You knew something was wrong before someone pointed out why-you made a moral judgment right there. Do you understand now how you could make a moral judgment before you applied a religious light to it? There's a more complex explanation which I can show by example, and there's just the much simpler reality of a person 'just knowing'. Let me know if you'd like to try the complex one.
I knew that sex was sacred.
I'll research this Hammurabi.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
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| Posted: 24 Aug 2008 19:24 |
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Are you telling me that you stopped smoking..but not because you knew it was an unhealthy lifestyle?
It was a temptation-end of story. Nothing further to examine or add-I enjoyed it. You keep trying to go around this most basic fact by pointing out other things that don't affect what it is in the first place. I have also already pointed out I had no health issues to justify quitting-this is a dead end for you. I did have reasons to quit as much as I had reasons to continue-that doesn't stop it from being a temptation.
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I knew that sex was sacred.
That's fine too. You can have used this or the just knowing or a combo of both to make a moral judgment. Since you knew sex was sacred before reading a bible(according here to what you posted)-why did you know sex was sacred in the first place?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 24 Aug 2008 19:51 |
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I'm going to use one of my posts from a few days ago to justify my argument. "And it is very difficult for an atheist to fight temptation. Because, to an atheist, why should they fight it at all? They have no one looking over their shoulder, nothing is holding them back." What am I adressing here?? Temptation--and morality!! When people do something they enjoy, and they continue doing it, it becomes harder to stop. The more you do it, the stronger the temptation, the weaker the resistance. You know its bad, but why stop? There is no god, and besides, you like it. But even in an atheist's case, if there there is some manner of motivation, you can stop. But in some cases (that can be very very bad and immoral) there may be no motivation, so there is no reason to stop.
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why did you know sex was sacred in the first place?
I knew that God had created it. It was made for the purpose of reproduction, adn using it for profit was desacralizing it.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
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| Posted: 24 Aug 2008 20:35 |
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I'm going to use one of my posts from a few days ago to justify my argument.
Quoting yourself to justify your argument which was already defeated. That doesn't sound like a bad idea to you? The rest of your quote was:
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Atheism is an excuse to do whatever you want, whenever you want, and however you want. Atheism is the view of life without retrictions.
Without any sort of restriction I wouldn't have a reason at all to quit, yet I restricted myself-obviously not a life without restrictions-I make choices like this all the time. You infer that your faith is the only way to restrict oneself, yet I still did just that and have proven you don't need a belief in God to do so. Your contention about atheists living without restrictions is soundly defeated when you look at the %'s of prison populations based on faith as versus %'s in real society. I am an atheist who conquered a temptation. Your argument is dead and its not coming back to life.
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I knew that God had created it.
How does this make sex sacred to you? There's a connection. I'm not saying you're wrong for believing this or trying to correct you. I am going somewhere with it.
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It was made for the purpose of reproduction,
A value is expressed here-things like this explain a small detail of why you think something is good or bad, which leads to placing a value on importance of it.
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using it for profit was desacralizing it.
This is one of those things that adjusts your level of importance on the subject of prostitution.
I want to make sure you're still with me at this point-it's gonna get even more complex.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 24 Aug 2008 21:37 |
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I'm going to use one of my posts from a few days ago to justify my argument.
Quoting yourself to justify your argument which was already defeated. That doesn't sound like a bad idea to you? The rest of your quote was:
Atheism is an excuse to do whatever you want, whenever you want, and however you want. Atheism is the view of life without retrictions.
But I wasn't using that part of the arguement. Why comment on the second half if I am using the first half?
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Without any sort of restriction I wouldn't have a reason at all to quit, yet I restricted myself-obviously not a life without restrictions-I make choices like this all the time.
You make your own restrictions, your own rules. That means you can stretch them anytime you want because they are your rules. And even a rapist can have restricions: For example, the rapist may set this rule for himself: he won't murder his victims. That may not have been a good example, but it still represents the point I'm trying to make.
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How does this make sex sacred to you? There's a connection. I'm not saying you're wrong for believing this or trying to correct you. I am going somewhere with it.
i just believe that God made it for a certain purpose, and that purpose shouldn't be abused. I probably didn't explain that all that well, its something I find difficult to put into the right words.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 24 Aug 2008 21:48 |
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You make your own restrictions, your own rules.
Thanks for noticing. This disables the 'view without restrictions' nonsense. Thing is, you do this also-like it or don't.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 24 Aug 2008 22:10 |
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Did you not read the last part of my paragraph? You're obviously missing my point.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 24 Aug 2008 22:24 |
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i just believe that God made it for a certain purpose, and that purpose shouldn't be abused.
There's nothing wrong with this at all. the sentiment or how it is phrased. Let's go deeper. These will seem like dumb questions, but bear with me here.
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Did God create everything?
Which God?
Did God create everything with only one purpose?
Is that one purpose the same for other animals in nature or just humans?
Is that purpose in other animals sacred?
Did God create sex to only have that one purpose?
Are every one of God's purposes to be understood and respected?
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You don't have to answer any of these to me. Your answers to them are your own. They will of course be completely different from mine- we both know this.
Instead, do you think each one of those questions will be answered exactly the same way you have as someone else who is just as faithful as you are to the Lord? That one you can answer. 
Keep in mind that this really is a very poor comparison to the list your brain actually goes through when it considers the topic of adult human sexual intercourse. If we just say sex, everything associated with sex gets brought into the convo, from porn to scandals to advertising to clothes, etc etc etc etc.
Now I'm gonna extend the questions from the foundation of values for human sexual relations to the negative value of prostitution.
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What is prostitution?
Are all acts of prostitution unholy?
Who is the criminal in the act?
Who if anyone is the victim?
Are there definitely a criminal and victim?
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Again, a very very short list just for example. Your answers may match mine here, or they might not. Your answers may match another Christian or Muslim exactly, or they might not. Your answers might match exactly with a democrat, or they might not.
Now here's a real fun thing-all this and we haven't even gotten to the issue of morality yet.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 24 Aug 2008 22:30 |
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Did you not read the last part of my paragraph? You're obviously missing my point.
Your points keep jumping around trying to keep each other afloat. Right now I am trying to show you that knowing rules is not a restriction in itself and that God or the Bible are not the only sources for rules even to the most devout follower.
If you're still trying to work some magic with temptation or 'life without restriction' then stick to one of those with a new argument. Else, we've pretty much covered it, at least to my satisfaction.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 24 Aug 2008 23:32 |
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Instead, do you think each one of those questions will be answered exactly the same way you have as someone else who is just as faithful as you are to the Lord? That one you can answer.
I think they would be answered the same way if that person has the same knowledge of God that I do.
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What is prostitution?
The selling of sex for profit.
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Are all acts of prostitution unholy?
Yes
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Who is the criminal in the act?
The prostitute and her partner.
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Who if anyone is the victim?
No victim.
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Are there definitely a criminal and victim?
No victim, two criminals.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 24 Aug 2008 23:39 |
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I mentioned the rapist thing because I was trying to point out that no matter how terrible his lifestyle, he can still have restrictions. Its that with atheists, they have much looser restritions than Christians.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 25 Aug 2008 00:03 |
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I mentioned the rapist thing
A rapist can be a vegetarian who recycles and donates blood. So what? We know rape is wrong and he doesn't-perhaps better to say, he might know it's wrong and actually not care. By the way, if you could see fit to not equating me to people like rapists to make your points, that would be most kind.
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atheists, they have much looser restritions than Christians.
There's only one restriction we don't share. I don't sit back and claim a god determines whats right and wrong for me. That's it. I'm not any more likely to lie, rape, murder or steal than you because of that limitation you have set and accepted for yourself.
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I think they would be answered the same way if that person has the same knowledge of God that I do.
Again, I asked if the other individual who had just as much faith as you would answer these and/or other questions exactly the same. Not the process of how you answer or how you arrive at an answer, but the conclusions themselves as the processes are identical for all of us.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 25 Aug 2008 01:20 Last Edited By: Steve Rogers |
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By the way, if you could see fit to not equating me to people like rapists to make your points, that would be most kind.
When I started talking about the rapist, I meant to throw in "I don't mean to compare you to a rapist" but I forgot. Sorry.
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There's only one restriction we don't share. I don't sit back and claim a god determines whats right and wrong for me. That's it. I'm not any more likely to lie, rape, murder or steal than you because of that limitation you have set and accepted for yourself.
Why should an atheist have any problem with lying?
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Again, I asked if the other individual who had just as much faith as you would answer these and/or other questions exactly the same.
I said knowledge, not faith. there's a difference. there may be a person who believes in Him as much as I do, but he may know less or more about Him than I do.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 25 Aug 2008 02:38 |
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Why should an atheist have any problem with lying?
Because I know what it feels like to be lied to.
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but he may know less or more about Him than I do.
The questions are not about who knows God better. For the sake of argument. they know exactly what you do. The questions are about your values versus theirs.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 25 Aug 2008 02:48 |
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Because I know what it feels like to be lied to.
Personal expierence, then? Do you expect the other atheists to have the same opinion.
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they know exactly what you do. The questions are about your values versus theirs.
Some of the first set of questions are somewhat based on knowledge. The second set based on virtues.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
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| Posted: 25 Aug 2008 03:10 |
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Do you expect the other atheists to have the same opinion.
I believe everyone lies when necessary and I believe everyone has had some unpleasant experience when someone has lied to them. Just for clarification, the golden rule is not the exclusive property of Christianity either.
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Some of the first set of questions are somewhat based on knowledge.
Not at all. Every last one is about a personal belief.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 25 Aug 2008 03:28 Last Edited By: Steve Rogers |
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Did God create everything with only one purpose?
Is that one purpose the same for other animals in nature or just humans?
Is that purpose in other animals sacred?
Did God create sex to only have that one purpose?
These questions I think could require a bit of knowledge about the Bible. You would have to have read it to answer them.
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I believe everyone lies when necessary and I believe everyone has had some unpleasant experience when someone has lied to them.
Right off the top of my head, I actually can't even think of an unpleasant expierence where I was lied to (but that may be because I never found out!). But seriously, of the atheists that I have known, none use that line of thinking. (but I suppose, from talking to you, some do think that way)I think if the average atheist was put in an uncomfortable situation, and was asked something he didn't want to answer for whatever reason, he might tell a lie without moral complications. The lie is told, and he can breath a sigh of relief.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 25 Aug 2008 04:33 |
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You would have to have read it to answer them.
That's debatable. How many people do you know personally that have opinions about God without reading any book at all?
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he might tell a lie without moral complications.
It's my opinion that some lies are more moral to tell than the truth-as in the ends justifying the means. Sometimes they're just plain harmless. Not every lie has a moral underpinning or consequence even when they eventually get found out.
It's like having your wife ask you what you're thinking, what you think about her cooking when she tries something new or if those jeans make her butt look big. A good husband can be perfectly honest all the time-but there's a price for it, especially the longer the marriage.
Your boss might be one of those type that constantly tells jokes, and they're mostly bad jokes. You could be honest, at a cost. If you really want to test your honesty mettle, try it on your next tax return. Let me know how that works out.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 25 Aug 2008 04:37 |
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Registered User
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Posts: 4725
Join Date: Aug 2007
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I actually can't even think of an unpleasant expierence where I was lied to
You've never had a person you know suggest some piece of entertainment as the greastest thing they've ever seen to be completely disappointed when you tried it? Some crazy food or drink that someone you trust implicitly tells you is great but it tastes horrible? How about a commercial for a product that you could say was the biggest mistake you've ever made in buying into? You've been lied to sometime by someone somewhere. Give it some thought.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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