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| Posted: 25 Aug 2008 04:44 |
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I agree with you somewhat on some of that. But not about the cooking part. If I didn't like what she cooked, I'd have to tell the truth because I wouldn't want to eat it again. Right?
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How many people do you know personally that have opinions about God without reading any book at all?
I have known people that have not read the whole Bible. But I don't know why it really matters. We're not leading up to anything.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 25 Aug 2008 04:56 |
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You've never had a person you know suggest some piece of entertainment as the greastest thing they've ever seen to be completely disappointed when you tried it? Some crazy food or drink that someone you trust implicitly tells you is great but it tastes horrible? How about a commercial for a product that you could say was the biggest mistake you've ever made in buying into? You've been lied to sometime by someone somewhere. Give it some thought.
Someone told me Cloverfield was a great movie, but I thought it was the worst movie I ever saw in my entire life. But I didn't realize I had been lied to...
I see the commercial thing all the time. I think that's happened to me before, but I can't recall when. Also, I didn't know this was the type lying you meant.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 25 Aug 2008 05:46 |
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Also, I didn't know this was the type lying you meant.
Why exclude anything that is considered lying? I didn't even get to politicians. That should be self evident.
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I have known people that have not read the whole Bible.
Not what I asked. Let me rephrase. Can people form an opinion about God without a Bible? Before it becomes something about right or wrong opinions, consider if you already have opinions about Allah without reading the Quran. Your answers should be yes on both.
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We're not leading up to anything.
Actually I was. We're building up to it.
I intend to bring this back around to the original issues we started with; morality without religion and imposing a belief system on others who don't share the same belief system and all that those things entail. We're still laying down a foundation here. For instance;
You were still checking into the slavery passages.
You were also going to check on scientific trials for gay brain rewiring.
I'm not entirely sure that you believe I know the difference between right and wrong in the first place or that I have access to such distinctions. I'd like to clear that up soon.
You were going to look over the code of Hammurabi as well.
You were also going to find some evidence of Christianity having a hand in the liberation of American slaves.
Lastly, we haven't even scratched the actual morality part yet.
We still have a lot of territory left to cover if you're willing and able.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 25 Aug 2008 13:25 Last Edited By: Steve Rogers |
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Can people form an opinion about God without a Bible?
Yeah, i suppose but I don't think his opinion would be the same as the man who has read the Bible.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 25 Aug 2008 15:04 |
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A person can read the Bible and reach different conclusions or not read it and reach the same conclusions. That's part of the package deal we're dealt with our beliefs.
Keeping in mind that I don't believe God has the final say on right and wrong on this plane of existence which I know you absolutely disagree with; I have to know if you believe that I know the difference between right and wrong or not.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 25 Aug 2008 23:38 |
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Apparently this question is a bit harder to answer than anticipated. Let me try it this way.
Do you understand that people can figure out the difference between right and wrong in ways besides spiritual means?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 26 Aug 2008 02:55 |
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Do you understand that people can figure out the difference between right and wrong in ways besides spiritual means?
I'm sorry if I'm not telling you what you want to hear, but let me try to answer this as best I can: I believe that you have determined your own version of right and wrong. Just as I have my own version of right and wrong. And as for the last part of the question, I think the man with faith's version of that will always be different than that of the man with no faith. Example: I feel gay marriage is wrong. You don't agree. I can't list any more examples because that is the only issue taht you have specifically mentioned.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 26 Aug 2008 04:24 |
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You were still checking into the slavery passages.
You were also going to check on scientific trials for gay brain rewiring.
I'm not entirely sure that you believe I know the difference between right and wrong in the first place or that I have access to such distinctions. I'd like to clear that up soon.
You were going to look over the code of Hammurabi as well.
You were also going to find some evidence of Christianity having a hand in the liberation of American slaves.
Lastly, we haven't even scratched the actual morality part yet.
You know that i haven't said anything about any of those in a while, so you may be beginning to suspect I wasn't able to find anything to support my point. That is not it at all. To be honest, I haven't even looked yet for have I have been extremely busy lately.
Just letting you know.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 26 Aug 2008 04:57 |
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I believe that you have determined your own version of right and wrong.
I believe you are correct. That doesn't answer the question however. You do understand that people can reach the same conclusions about various subjects being right or wrong whether by faith or not? Like that I have seperate but equal reasons for thinking prostitution wrong.
As for that to-do list, I was just pointing out how we still had a lot to discuss, partly by the list of things you said you were going to look into. It's up to you if you want to study any of those things further or not.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 26 Aug 2008 13:32 |
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The prostitution part prooves that we being of two different belief systems, we can still agree that it is wrong.
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You do understand that people can reach the same conclusions about various subjects being right or wrong whether by faith or not?
It is possible for people (again, of different belief systems) to come to the same conclusions about some subjects but there can never be complete agreement. We may agree on the issue of prostitution, but I am sure there are others you and I may feel differently about.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 26 Aug 2008 16:00 |
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Abandoning this topic for greener pastures before I give in to the temptation to take Steve to task.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 26 Aug 2008 17:43 |
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come to the same conclusions about some subjects but there can never be complete agreement.
Something is either right or wrong-if we both say it's wrong that sounds like a complete agreement to me. As for different topics put side by side on a list, of course we're not going to completely agree-no two people can unless they've both been programmed.
I really do want to be sure we're in agreement here. Do you agree that a person can decide right from wrong with other criteria besides faith to decide?
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take Steve to task.
I think that refers to me, but my name is Scott. 
If that is to me, task away.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 26 Aug 2008 19:51 |
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Do you agree that a person can decide right from wrong with other criteria besides faith to decide?
Yes.
We've been doing this for so long I seem to have forgotten what this is really about.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 26 Aug 2008 21:26 |
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We are talking about morality, which is not simply an on/off switch.
The next thing for your consideration, so I can hear on thoughts on is this.
A belief is simply a thought or idea backed by evidence, whether that evidence is real or only imagined. Do you agree with this?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 26 Aug 2008 23:24 |
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No.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
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| Posted: 27 Aug 2008 01:39 |
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What is a belief then?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 27 Aug 2008 02:17 |
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...sigh...Pak, you have to ask the hard questions don't you? The ones that really make you think.
I agreee with half your statement. A belief is a thought or idea that may or may not be backed by real factual evidence.
The reason I disagreed with your definition, is because when looking at it, I realized that it left out a higher power. I don't have real evidence that there is a higher power, and my belief in Him is not imagined.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 27 Aug 2008 02:56 |
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I'm just talking about ordinary old beliefs here, but it will extend up to your spiritual beliefs. I said real or imagined-your beliefs in a higher power could be very real. I have no desire to shatter your beliefs.
Let's try something much simpler and less personal(depending on who might be a real 'fanboy' here )- who is better at hand to hand combat, Batman or Captain America?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 27 Aug 2008 03:27 |
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Wow, that question really took me off guard.
Captain America.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 27 Aug 2008 04:04 |
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Why Cap, besides him being a favorite?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 27 Aug 2008 04:21 |
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How'd you know he's my favorite? Did you guess that because of my name?
Captain America would win because he is physically perfect due to the super soldier serum. He is stronger, faster, and more agile than Batman. An expert tactician, and the best when it comes to fighting skills.
What do you think?
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 27 Aug 2008 04:39 |
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A great list, I won't dispute it even though Bats is one of my favorites.
Here's what I was getting at. You believe Cap is better than Bats at hand to hand combat. Your evidence for this is 1)strength 2)speed 3)coordination and 4)tactics.
This is how all beliefs are made. Not all of them are arrived at so simply, but the process remains the same each time. You started with two thoughts> Cap is better or Bats is better. After weighing each, if only for a moment, you sided with Cap. You then thought of evidence to support your thought. Keeping in mind that these are fictional characters and the actual outcome would be whatever that writer made it out to be, you still have a belief backed by imagined evidence as there is no 'real' way to measure the two.
With me so far?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 27 Aug 2008 04:55 |
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Yes, I am.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 27 Aug 2008 05:26 |
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The next natural step is, what counts as evidence and where do we get the evidence from?
I'll tell ya.
Evidence can be anything that supports the thought or belief positively. That's why it can be real or imagined. It just has to add some positive basis as consideration for the belief.
We get evidence from everywhere. It can be a story you heard, a lesson taught, personal experience, sympathy, empathy, or even just an emotional need. Sometimes it just pays to apply the golden rule pre-emptively or as a response to a previous experience or story.
There are two particular places of obtaining evidence that really stand out. Being the complex creatures we are, we have a natural habit of looking for patterns. When we encounter a new pattern, our brain kicks in without us asking and decides what to do with it. Often, we will wind up filling in the gaps with something we already recognize, as a survival mechanism. If there's one common shared fear most of us have it is fear of the unknown-we can't handle it(it's a rare person who can). Sometimes we find a way to make this gap-filler evidence, just to avoid an unknown.
The second piece of interesting evidence is that we will use other beliefs we already have, to evidence new ones. This is similar to filling in gaps as its something that can be more instinct than logic.
I'll stop there just to make sure I explained myself well enough. This is a new experience trying to teach this, as I'm not a teacher or anything. Any thoughts, rebuttals or questions?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 27 Aug 2008 17:33 |
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No questions as of yet. Continue.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 27 Aug 2008 19:34 |
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Consider when you went over the two very different issues- one with prostitution and the other with Cap vs Bats. Even though the only real difference between these questions was the level of importance(therefore reward and consequence), you arrived at your values on each the same way. Prostitution was prety much settled before the conversation even began. Your beliefs about God affect your beliefs about sex which in turn inform any idea or thought about prostitution. On the other hand, when you had the choice between comic characters, it wasn't spelled out so easily. This question has negligable connections to God, so you had to actually think about the answer without a solid line of division between the two already spelled out. You'll also notice that you were able to decide prostitution was wrong with one piece of evidence while Cap got a list of four to back him up. When I have to make a choice about anything, it rarely gets only one single piece of evidence. I would love to point and say that all non-believers don't have the same access to hard-wired absolutes as most believers, but this is apparently not the case. I can only speak for myself, but I will say this. 'We' don't have any sort of guidebook or counselor to tell us what to value or to spell out for us the absolute line between right and wrong-we find other sources to help us decide.
(pause)
Still good?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 28 Aug 2008 02:37 |
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I think is a minor detail, but what did you mean by reward and consequence? Entirely my fault for not understanding.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 28 Aug 2008 03:30 |
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Compare the two things in question. The real life choice between right and wrong applied to prostitution and then the simpler almost meaningless choice of a preference between two fictional characters. Your first choice has real world rewards or consequences. The second is merely a piece of entertainment with no real consequence or reward of substance to it. The higher a value something has for you personally, the more emotionally tied to it you have let it become is the more vivid, drastic, powerful or meaningful the reward and/or consequence becomes. By sex being something -sacred- to you, you've given it a huge level of importance, hence the rewards or consequences of it are far more vital(even sacred themselves) than who wins a comic book fight.
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It's not entirely your fault-I've taken us on a very long trip here, specifically because it's the details that do matter. I worry about not only if I'm getting my message across, but covering those details, staying on course and not talking down to you at the same time. It's been quite a mental workout.
Please check and see if there are any other details I've missed or gotten wrong or have not completely been thorough on.
I'm just about to actually get back to the morality of it all.(finally)
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 28 Aug 2008 04:27 |
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O.K, Pack Rat, I'm on track now.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 28 Aug 2008 05:13 |
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The million dollar question: what is morality?
Is it just knowing right from wrong? No. The map is not the territory. Knowing the path and walking the path are entirely different. Knowing right and wrong on any subject means you have placed those values on the subject, the values themselves based on your beliefs.
Ok, let's tread the path then. If you are doing a thing to gain a reward or not doing another thing to avoid punishment-this is not morality either. Whether or not you pay your taxes, jaywalk or say 'God bless you' when someone sneezes are not moral decisions.
True morality is tailoring your decisions properly when they have an effect on others. You can't be moral all by yourself. It's the effect on others specifically that makes it a moral choice or not.
I constantly have had myself not having God as the ultimate source of my values compared to criminal behavior. I am assured that without God, I have no reason to not be an atrocious piece of garbage criminal of some sort. I am about to propose something shocking here so brace yourself.
We all, every one of us, have one simple scale we measure right and wrong moral decisions on. There is one definitive line that all moral decisions must find themselves on one side of or the other. One measurement of value we all make, God or no, religion or no, saint and sinner alike.
Creation value versus destruction value.
This is the one source of all moral correctness, the scale that all individual values are judged by.
Proper moral decisions are ones that advance or secure elements of creation, growth and prosperity in regards to others, sometimes at cost to us. The improper moral decisions are ones that cause loss or destruction for others, specifically for some personal gain.
I do have more thoughts on this, but I'll leave it there for now. It's taken a while to get here and I'm dying to hear your thoughts on all this so far.(not just Steve's here-anyone can jump in).
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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