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| Posted: 28 Aug 2008 23:54 |
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Knowing the path and walking the path are entirely different.
Are you saying that knowing right and wrong is different than actually following those principles?
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True morality is tailoring your decisions properly when they have an effect on others. You can't be moral all by yourself. It's the effect on others specifically that makes it a moral choice or not.
Explain.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2008 01:03 |
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Are you saying that knowing right and wrong is different than actually following those principles?
Yes. If there weren't a difference we wouldn't need prisons or a court system. Knowing the difference and acting accordingly are different.
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Explain.
If you do something that strictly benefits you, it is imposible to call this any sort of moral choice ir action. Choosing to abstain from premarital or extra-marital sex is on a similar par to paying your taxes, you're either choosing to avoid the consequences (more than likely) or just behaving 'properly'. Choosing to donate blood might or might not be a moral decision, depending on whether or not you are doing it in the hopes of there being some there if you need it or strictly because others need it. Creating a non profit organization to combat homelessness would seem to be purely a moral choice as I can't think of a personal gain from it, unless the organization is doing it for some other purpose such as indoctrination to some other cause or effort. This would then make it a base level recruitment scheme.
How am I doin?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2008 01:26 |
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Choosing to abstain from premarital or extra-marital sex is on a similar par to paying your taxes, you're either choosing to avoid the consequences (more than likely) or just behaving 'properly'
Wouldn't you consider "behaving properly" as a reason to avoid premarital sex a moral choice?
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2008 02:48 |
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Wouldn't you consider "behaving properly" as a reason to avoid premarital sex a moral choice?
Depends on why you're behaving exactly. Are you shy? Maybe you don't trust the woman? Maybe you think you're being watched and will be punished? Maybe you feel you're being watched and you're trying to earn brownie points by doing the 'right' thing, like this event is going to be on your permanent record?
These reasons wouldn't make it a moral choice.
Don't get me wrong here. If you have a personal value or belief that abstaining is wrong, it's not a bad thing in any way to abstain. You're certainly not harming anyone else with that value or by adhering to it. Further you would cause yourself mental distress by breaking one of your own rules if you did go ahead with that temptation. Perhaps along those lines, and the ones about feeling watched, you're really just protecting yourself.
In my personal case, I don't see a problem with premarital sex at all-I don't have the same value as you on this particular issue. That reason alone would not be enough for me to abstain and if such a situation arose, I would not be harming anyone by acting accordingly. Neither of our cases here is a moral decision, per se, unless some other choice or action or event takes place.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2008 02:55 Last Edited By: Steve Rogers |
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Well then, in my case, it would be a moral issue. I mean, what you said about protecting yourself, afterwards I thought about the possibility of AIDS or some sexual disease, but the main reason (for me) is morality.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2008 03:11 |
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I think that refers to me, but my name is Scott.
If that is to me, task away. I was referring to the hombre going by the Steve Rogers handle.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2008 03:19 |
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but the main reason (for me) is morality.
How so?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2008 03:20 |
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I was referring to the hombre going by the Steve Rogers handle.
Something you want to say, Preach..?
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2008 03:20 |
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I was referring to the hombre going by the Steve Rogers handle.
It's amazing but that completely escaped me. 
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2008 03:22 |
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Well you've had a lot on your mind trying to hit moving targets and all.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2008 03:22 |
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3 of us here at once and no chat room. Criminal.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2008 03:24 |
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Well for me to get involved in this discussion I would have to abandon Part 4 and start over.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2008 03:27 |
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I was wondering why Preacher Man would want to take me to task.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2008 03:29 |
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I'm a little curious about the moving targets he was referring to myself.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2008 03:31 |
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Am I the moving target? I certainly hope not.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2008 03:34 |
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a bit Steve, yes
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2008 03:34 |
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but the main reason (for me) is morality.
How so?
Well, my main reason is none of those you listed above. I just don't like the idea of sex before marriage. I guess it just all goes back to what i said about sex being sacred, along with marriage.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2008 03:38 |
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a bit Steve, yes
Can you elaborate please. I detest the idea of being a target.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2008 03:48 |
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I guess it just all goes back to what i said about sex being sacred, along with marriage.
Let me try my parameters on it.
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Proper moral decisions are ones that advance or secure elements of creation, growth and prosperity in regards to others, sometimes at cost to us. The improper moral decisions are ones that cause loss or destruction for others, specifically for some personal gain.
Let's try...
For you to have premarital sex would be immoral as you would be sabotaging something you hold as an ideal of either creation or prosperity.
For two others to engage in this, where the premarital part is the one distinguishing feature that you can point to that you don't agree with, does not make it immoral for them.
You might not condone it, but they've done nothing immoral if it is only about them being unmarried and they don't hold the same value as you here.
That work? I'm still refining this as we go and want to make sure this makes sense when i turn it into a chapter.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2008 03:55 |
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For you to have premarital sex would be immoral as you would be sabotaging something you hold as an ideal of either creation or prosperity.
Huh?
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I'm still refining this as we go and want to make sure this makes sense when i turn it into a chapter.
Dude, its already a chapter. You're working towards novel now.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2008 03:58 |
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I'm seeing now that I should remove the part about others in that definition-you can easily just do the damage to yourself by compromise and thereby cause loss or destruction to yourself for some short term gain. To sell out on your own ideals and beliefs is certainly immoral. You can be immoral all by yourself-I'm still sticking with needing someone else involved to be moral however.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2008 04:00 |
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Dude, its already a chapter. You're working towards novel now.
It's not like I'm just going to cut and paste this thread into a book. It's but a chapter sadly.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2008 06:06 |
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Alrighty...next attempt to get this right.
A proper moral action is one that that advances, upholds or secures values of creation, growth or well-being, even to the extent of sacrificing a lesser but decidedly positive value.
A negative moral action is one that will knowingly cause a result of some measurable loss or destruction for the purpose of some known personal gain.
Opinions?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2008 14:50 |
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Simpler definition is anything is immoral that goes against the word or command of God. The origin of sin and all things evil came from the first disobedient act against God.
People often make the mistake of assuming they are moral sometimes based on feelings. Feeling in the right doesn't always mean one is behaving morally. Thus we need a higher source, the Bible.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2008 19:37 |
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Thus we need a higher source, the Bible.
Hindus disagree.
Buddhists disagree.
Jews disagree.
Muslims disagree.
I disagree.
A person does not have to be a Christian to do moral things or be a moral person. You have selected a source to base your values on, and that's fine for you. The rest of us have different sources for our values.
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anything is immoral that goes against the word or command of God.
When he speaks directly to you so you hear his word and command directly, you might have something. I know how much stock you put in the Bible, but unless God is speaking directly to you, you are hearing second hand information. In the case of the Bible, more like 10th or 12th hand. You're working under your interpretation of the interpretation of another interpretation of a translation of a collection of books that were cobbled together and went through a committee that voted on what belonged and did not belong-this is what you call your 'one true word'.
Now, having said all that. I don't fault you for your source on your personal values. Whatever has you acting correctly is just fine by me. If someone does not believe in God, they obviously cannot use the Bible as an exclusive source of making proper decisions, moral or otherwise. People make moral decisions every day that believe their behavior is based solely on the Quran or the Talmud. This again is fine for them, but not for everyone else. I could not expect you to live exclusively by anything presented in these texts-so please explain why someone outside your faith has to base their judgment on your text.
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People often make the mistake of assuming they are moral sometimes based on feelings. Feeling in the right doesn't always mean one is behaving morally.
I believe we are on the same page here, which is why I say a proper moral action is one toward actual positive measurements.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2008 21:45 |
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Hindus disagree.
Buddhists disagree.
Jews disagree.
Muslims disagree.
I disagree.
Sure doesn't change my mind one bit.
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I believe we are on the same page here, which is why I say a proper moral action is one toward actual positive measurements. Problem is whose measuring stick are you using? That's why having a definitive source comes in handy.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2008 22:11 |
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Sure doesn't change my mind one bit.
Typical.
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Problem is whose measuring stick are you using? That's why having a definitive source comes in handy.
I offered a measurement for everyone. You offer that they better do it your way(yes I know, God's way) or else.
Here's what I'll do. Christopher Hitchens gets the credit for this. I'm going to give you the opportunity to prove what you say is true- how only Christians are moral.
It's quite simple.
Show any action that is a moral one done by a Christian that cannot be done by a Jew or Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist or atheist. Please note before giving some 'killer answer' that I said an action that is moral, not an action that a Christian does which becomes automatically moral because its a Christian doing it. Please no more circular logic tautologies.
A moral action that a Christian can do that anyone who is not a Christian cannot?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 30 Aug 2008 00:18 |
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Show any action that is a moral one done by a Christian that cannot be done by a Jew or Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist or atheist. Who would be foolish enough to try to make that case? I may have missed something in these seven pages or so of postings, but did anyone claim that was the case, Pak?
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 30 Aug 2008 00:47 |
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but did anyone claim that was the case, Pak?
Tim did.
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anything is immoral that goes against the word or command of God. The origin of sin and all things evil came from the first disobedient act against God.
What he's saying here is you have to believe in his version of a god and only by obeying his version of god by what is in that god's handbook is the only way to be a moral person or therefore do moral acts or deeds.
Feels like we're back at step one again.
He now has the opportunity to either show he meant something completely different than what I perceived him to be saying or to finally back it up with some sort of evidence.
I'd like to hear your thoughts on this preach as it is important to me that this be acceptible to the greater majority of people, regardless of their faith.
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A proper moral action is one that that advances, upholds or secures values of creation, growth or well-being, even to the extent of sacrificing a lesser but decidedly positive value.
A negative moral action is one that will knowingly cause a result of some measurable loss or destruction for the purpose of some known personal gain.
Does this serve well enough for the general public as a measurement, or have I either left someone out or excluded another?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 30 Aug 2008 05:12 |
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Tim did. Ah, well then feel free to shred him for being ridiculous.
I think I've made it clear that my position on this is that you are no less moral than me (unfortunately that doesn't really put you in very good company I'm afraid) and that our morals, or more to the point, our consciences, have a shared source.
So does being a Christian make you any more moral? I don't really see that it does. I think you may have a clearer understanding of what your Creator expects of you, but all the basic components of a working conscience are hard-wired into you.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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