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| Posted: 12 Sep 2007 21:05 |
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You loving your wife does not make her your equal or degrade her, regardless of what level that love is or how that love is compared to something else. The bible has no notion whatsoever of gender equality.
The expression of your beliefs doesn't hinder a thing. Back to what we were discussing though. There is no freedom of or from religion in the bible.
This country was not founded as a Christian theocracy. If you want to see what it's really founded on, I posted the declaration of independence and the constitution for everyone to peruse in the congress section. Tons of political reasons to form our own free country, under a better set of guidelines than we had. Christ and the ten commandments are never mentioned once in either document. In the bible, there is no freedom of religion(just freedom to follow that one or else), no gender or racial equality, no innocence until guilt is proven(your book has us all born guilty instead), or any semblence of a fair justice system(besides the 'word of God' as interpreted by flawed and more than likely selfish men).
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 13 Sep 2007 16:28 |
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The spirit of the Word is in the Constitution. The Constitution is not written by God, but the men that wrote the Constitution were inspired by reading the Word of God, the Bible.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 14 Sep 2007 01:17 |
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Political. Not theological.
The constitution was inspired by men who wanted freedom from a tyrant king. If they happened to believe in the same religion and same God, that's fine and I can't argue that with you. If they all wore the same brand of hat from the same hatmaker would you credit the hatmaker with the founding of the nation? No, that wouldn't make sense regardless of how much everyone likes, respects, or loves that hatmaker. The nation was founded for political reasons and not biblical ones. Read the laundry list of complaints on the Declaration of Independence toward that king-he was their primary inspiration, followed immediately by the Greeks and some other Philosophers in the interest of a new fair government.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 14 Sep 2007 16:35 |
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regardless of how much everyone likes, respects, or loves that hatmaker. Butthe founder did love and respect God and would have never wanted Him excluded from government facilities.
The founders were religious and also in my opinion very superior intellectually. They knew that expression of religion alone was no danger to anyone. It is only when people are forced to go to a particular church or join a particular religion that a problem occurs. Expressing religious ideas in public is no danger to anyone, and I'm sure the founders would agree with me. In fact I think they would be more afraid of a society intolerant of religious expression. The more doors to expression you close the less thinking occurs. Is that what you want? Less thinking. We need more analyzation of ideas not less, and that's another thing. Analyzing religions for good or bad is yet another expression of free thinking. It can't happen if we can't express religion in public places. You are teaching kids not to think. I don't think a teacher should be overly negative toward any religion, but discussions shouldn't be outlawed.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 15 Sep 2007 02:06 |
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That's a great argument for what you believe but it has just about nothing to do with what I said.
There is no freedom of or from religion in the bible.
There is no racial or gender equality in the bible.
The country was founded for political reasons, part of which are most certainly religious freedoms-not just one person, not just one religion-all people and all religions. That's a right given to us as part of a long list, not the reason for the list.
There's no problem expressing your beliefs in a public place. I think you may be mistaking what a public place is though. It's not a courthouse and it's not your neighbor's house. Everywhere that belongs to you personally is fine. Everywhere that is available for everyone and not paid for by taxes is fine. Everywhere you want to is another story.
Teaching kids to sum up things by saying simply 'God did it' doesn't count as thinking at all in my book. Don't take that as a personal attack please. Just counting on faith to explain things takes no thought at all in my opinion. If you want to teach religions as a philosophy or history you'd be on the right track but keep this in mind; to follow the letter and spirit of the law you'd have to teach a wide enough variety of all religions to not show preference to any one. Think of all those conflicting ideas and ideals coming together for one class- what are the kids really supposed to learn from that?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 15 Sep 2007 21:02 |
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There is no racial or gender equality in the bible.
There is no racism promoted in the Bible, and if you are to love everyone how can you have racist feelings toward anyone. The government can legislate hate all they want, but they can only control actions. The Bible actually goes after the heart where crimes, racism, and hatred begin.
As far as public, my taxes pay for public property just as much as yours. So telling me what I can and can't say is just as wrong as telling you what you can and can't say.
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Teaching kids to sum up things by saying simply 'God did it' doesn't count as thinking at all in my book. That's not all there is to it scientifically by a long shot. It's like all the things we have discussed. A class could study all the ins and outs of carbon dating. When does it work, when doesn't it. Get a scientific argument from both sides. Are there signs in the earth that support a giant flood? You could ask the other way too are there other explanations for that evidence. The questions and thinking for that matter could go on forever and it would teach kids to question things not just swallow everything hook line and sinker like marching in goose step to the latest evolutionist theory without hearing evidence from all sides. The skills of thinking and reasoning in science requires hearing all evidence not just evidence that supports your view.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 16 Sep 2007 01:28 |
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Not promoting racism and racial equality are not the same.
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my taxes pay for public property
Our taxes pay for private property owned by the government-libraries, post offices, town halls, etc. That sounds like telling a cop you pay his salary and then telling him what to do. It doesn't work that way.
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the ins and outs of carbon dating
What does the bible say about carbon dating or anything scientific whatsoever? Please show me some form of science from the good book.
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teach kids to question things not just swallow everything hook line and sinker like marching in goose step to the latest evolutionist theory
That would be much worse than just marching along to one person or another's theology in what way exactly?
Could you show some of your evidence of thinking in any matters of faith? I don't think so. I may be wrong so you're going to have to help me see it.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 17 Sep 2007 15:49 |
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Our taxes pay for private property owned by the government-libraries, post offices, town halls, etc. That sounds like telling a cop you pay his salary and then telling him what to do. he has to protect me and my rights to live without harm just like he has to protect you. I can't tell him what to do, but I have the right to ask for help whenever I or someone else is in danger, correct?
We have a God given right to speak our minds just as much as we have a right to be free from harm.
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What does the bible say about carbon dating or anything scientific whatsoever? Please show me some form of science from the good book. I believe I was inferring science class discuss how science relates to the creation story or the great flood etc. I mean come on even secular minded archeologist and scientist study the great flood. They may come to different conclusions than Christian scientists, but they aren't prohibited from studying in that direction like a kid in school might be.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 17 Sep 2007 17:17 |
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No sir, you have a constitution given right. Believers in other countries without some form of rights rely only on prayer. Get it straight.
Again...Where is the science in Genesis or the great flood?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 17 Sep 2007 20:45 |
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No sir, you have a constitution given right. Argue that with the founding fathers that made the consitution and proclaimed our rights were given to us by God.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
So you get it straight.
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Again...Where is the science in Genesis or the great flood? I'm starting to think you are goofy, or just stubborn as all get out. There are a lot of ways to study science and how it relates to the Bible like why coal beds lay in such a way as to appear to have been created suddenly as in a big flood all over the world. Many people believe the Grand Canyon was created by a giant flood.
The Bible says life is in the blood long before doctors realized bleeding was a bad idea.
Back again to common sense that tells a man there is too much order in the universe to not have an intelligence behind it.
There's a lot to study there in science especially in regards to the flood so don't even try the whole it's only faith bit with me ok.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 17 Sep 2007 21:34 |
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I'm starting to think you are goofy, or just stubborn as all get out
Fair's fair. Right back at ya.
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how it relates to the Bible
Not anything in the bible though?
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The Bible says life is in the blood
Not science. Just a phrase you take out of context.
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common sense that tells a man there is too much order in the universe
That's why science is trying to find out some answers instead of sitting there smugly pretending they have an answer at all. Your way just leads back to 'Who created God?' which leads to you escaping your own necessity for a Creator.
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There's a lot to study there in science especially in regards to the flood
I'll bet. Noah heard voices, invented the cubit, built a boat(a magic one), then went on a mad hunting spree, gathered up his zoo and his family, whence it rained for 40 days and nights, after which they disembarked when the sun came back out and repopulated the entire earth.
Where is the science? Where is this fantasy even slightly possible? Do you have even the slightest idea of what science is besides some enemy you have to fight while not knowing why?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 17 Sep 2007 21:46 |
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I know a biased opinion when I read one. It's pretty obvious that there is nothing on this earth that could crack your faith in darwin, evolution, or lack of faith in God. I guess it's just how you grew up, but no matter what I say I have a feeling you are just sweeping it under the rug faster than I can type it.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 18 Sep 2007 00:41 |
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That works both ways boss. You can't seem to answer straight questions if they in any way shape or form question the mystical. You knock science fiction and praise fantasy. Why can't we find some common ground?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 18 Sep 2007 00:44 |
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By the way, you never backed up that Christian Nation fantasy.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 18 Sep 2007 15:13 |
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That works both ways boss. You can't seem to answer straight questions if they in any way shape or form question the mystical. I give you very good answers that you ignore because they don't fit into your world view.
I think you are fishing for some kind of answer that makes you look good. Perhaps when I answer your questions I'm also assuming there are some things we both already know. The Bible may not be a book written specifically for science, but it has many things that should be of interest to a scientist. Stop looking at this whole subject with such antagonism.
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By the way, you never backed up that Christian Nation fantasy. If you are referring to the supreme court ruling post, take another look.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 18 Sep 2007 15:20 |
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I asked where the actual science was and you showed none. Has nothing to do with my world view and believe me, this isn't antagonistic.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 19 Sep 2007 15:36 |
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I think you feel antagonistic toward God and the idea of creationism. The question is why? I don't feel you are actually looking at my comments in a very detailed manner. You just sort of read them and say phooey, and that's it.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 20 Sep 2007 03:13 |
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I feel nothing toward something I don't think is real. It would be like you hating the tooth fairy or Apollo Creed.
I asked you where the ideals of democracy are in your bible and got a runaround. I broke it down to exact things to show in the bible that would support your claim that this was founded as a Christian nation and you still didn't do it. Then we went off on your tangent about science and when I asked for some examples of that in the bible, I got insults and yet another runaround. Now I get an analysis for my questions and what I'm trying to accomplish with my antagonism......
Cut the crap and get back to basics....
What details am I supposed to be reading that actually answer the questions you've been avoiding?
Where's the science in the bible?
Where are the ideals of democracy that our country is actually founded on(as spelled out in the bill of rights and the declaration of independence) anywhere in the bible?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 20 Sep 2007 12:35 |
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Patrakmak, why are you so concerned with what Tim beleives? He's not trying to establish a theocracy or force you to read the Bible or go to church. He is (as I am) of the opinion that the Bible is true and that one of its commandments to believers is to spread its truths, but through personal contacts and relationships, not at the point of a gun or with the arm of government.
Why is this such a big deal to you? And you fault Tim for quoting a Book he believes to prove his point, but you feel free to quote any youtube video you can dig up? Why is it such a leap of logic for someone who beleieves the Bible to quote the Bible as part of their reasoning for why they beleive the way they do? If you were to ask me why I think the Constitution is superior to some other document, chances are I'd quote the Constitution a few times in my reply.
And you can't have it both ways. You can't fault Tim for not having gobs of Scripture to give you when he doesn't, and then fault him for using Scripture when he doesn't.
Let's say Tim and I are both dead wrong, but we don't know it and we go on fat dumb and happy. Who are we hurting? Honestly, it always befuddles me how upset someone can get over something like this. If I believed in the tooth fairy and if I got together with a bunch of fairy believers and we sang songs about the tooth fairy and talked about the tooth fairy and even more little molars around our necks and told you 'the tooth fairy says you oughta be nice to people',what threat would we be to your liberties?
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 20 Sep 2007 12:48 |
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You know , it really comes down to
1 CORINTHIANS 2
14 But the NATURAL MAN receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
So rather than waste a whole lot of emotional energy chasing this rabbit, I'll go find someone who is tired of sin and realizes the reality of the coming judgement of sin by God and wants to get saved. I think I'll go find some old lowlife reprobate sinner with a shattered life like me and show them the hope that the Lord has given me. You can get more done with an honest lowlife than with a dishonest skeptic.
And no, I am not accusing you of being dishonest, unless the shoe fits.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 20 Sep 2007 16:28 |
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Captain America
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preacher man,
I think a lot of their debate stems from Tim's belief that (a very specific) religion should be weaved into our government and pak's belief to the contrary.
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| Posted: 20 Sep 2007 17:05 |
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O.K, hows this for a belief?
Although it would be foolish to say that every founder was a Bible-believing Christian, the Bible held a much larger influence in the way most people thought and acted than it does now. Even people who didnt neccesarily believe it to be the literal Word of God read it, quoted from it and alluded to it in their writings. The departure from that in society represents a downward drift in our society.
Now if God is the Author and granter of our liberties, then an increasingly secular society can expect to slowly lose their liberties. But societies don't become secular from the top down, it's from the bottom up, so individual people making individual decisions about how to live their lives affects the whole. What eventually happens is the country that wasn't ashamed to put a Bible verse on the Liberty Bell eventually becomes afraid to even pray before a football game.
So when those who still try to adhere to a Biblical worldview start saying "You know, maybe we as a country ought not go too far down this road we're on", suddenly we're accused of trying to start a theocracy. If we were never a theocracy (and I agree with pak that we weren't) then a return to the old paths shouldnt be that much of a threat, right?
Now, as a libertarian, I do get a little nervous when well-intentioned people try to use the power of the state to drag us back onto the right path. I maintain that the solution is to address individual people about their individual choices and fix the problem from the bottom up.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 20 Sep 2007 17:12 |
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Captain America
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I maintain that addressing faith in a broad sense (the founding fathers, many of whom were deists, never put Christ in the Constitution, but the creator) is OK, but when it goes about endorsing a specific religion, it's a no-go.
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the Bible held a much larger influence in the way most people thought and acted than it does now.
Not a bad thing, imo. Though religion is capable of great things, it also is responsible for some of the most heinous acts in history. As well, the founding fathers (and people of that time) held many beliefs we don't subscribe to today – for good and for bad.
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I maintain that the solution is to address individual people about their individual choices and fix the problem from the bottom up.
I agree, so let's keep specific religious references off courthouses and out of politicians mouths.
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| Posted: 20 Sep 2007 18:18 |
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I agree, so let's keep specific religious references off courthouses and out of politicians mouths.
That kind of goes against our own history, don't you think?
You know, in a similar vein, I have a friend that I preached with for years that became very agitated when rumors started swirling about the removal of "In God we Trust" off of our money. These rumors show up every few years like a chain letter and then they go away until the next time. See how cynical I'm getting?
Sidestepping all arguments about whether or not that's an appropriate phrase to have on our money (it does come from our national anthem after all), I asked my friend whether or not it really made any difference in the way anyone lives their lives. Why put "In God We Trust" on our money when we, as a a nation, don't trust in God? I maintain that it doesn't really affect anything one way or the other except as a barometer of where we are as a people in that we would suggest such a thing. If you were to suggest in times past that our nation could so cavalierly disregard the Giver of life and liberty, I suspect most of the populace would have been greatly offended. And if you were to tell them of the systematic dismantling of all public references to God that has taken place in the last 70 years or so, they would have been shocked. Downward slide, folks, downward slide.
But like I said, if you're not willing to honor God in your personal life, then I see no real reason to keep it on the money unless as some sort of curious historical precedent. Sort of a "Yeah, we used to believe that" kind of thing.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 20 Sep 2007 18:20 |
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Though religion is capable of great things, it also is responsible for some of the most heinous acts in history.
Once again, that's a whole 'nother discussion.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 20 Sep 2007 18:38 |
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Captain America
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That's progress, like as in how we no longer burn people accused of witchcraft at the stake or stone adulterers.
There's other elements of our history we have shed, too, that no one seems to mind being gone.
But peoples' subservience to myths is scary. And that's what the Bible is: A collection of Judeo history mixed with myths (many of which were borrowed from the Mesopotamians and Egyptians). Very similar in nature (and content) to what the Classical Greeks did with their myths: They mixed their legends with strains of earlier Greek cultures to produce a rich web that contained history, morality and fantasy.
Example: Jesus Christ was real. And he died. He wasn't the first virgin birth in legend, nor was he the first to come back from the dead. People took old myths and applied them to his story. Remember, the Gospels weren't written til about 30 years or so after his death. The last was scribed about 120 years after his death.
Early Christians and later Constantine took elements of the old myths and fused them with their developing religion to make it more acceptable to newcomers. Oh, look, we don't have to give up our winter solstice celebration, we just call it Christmas. And Jesus, he came back from the dead, just like Osiris did.
And again, I ask, where did all those old gods go? Yahweh acknowledges them in the 10 Commandments. But where did they go?
My guess: Nowhere, because they didn't exist, like the God of the Bible doesn't exist.
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| Posted: 20 Sep 2007 18:40 |
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Captain America
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My point is that we as a nation can shed the old hoodoo and mystical crap that our forefathers believed (remember, their grandparents were burning witches and throwing people into stocks over not attending churches) …
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| Posted: 20 Sep 2007 18:46 Last Edited By: Tim |
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Thanks for adding to the conversation guys, and I for my part thank you especially preacher man for helping to back me up.
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Though religion is capable of great things, it also is responsible for some of the most heinous acts in history. You know I once read that the founders wanted scripture to be taught in schools so every man could understand them and thus avoid the misuse of the Bible for things like the Crusades. They never considered outlawing the Bible from schools.
I think if the founders wanted such a deep line of seperation they would have added a lot more greater detail to the Constitution defining exactly what that meant. As I've said before of course the term seperation of church and state isn't even in the constitution. Funny how the founders assumed that their words were so easily understood they didn't think to clarify and reclarify their meanings for future generations. I suppose they didn't imagine a time when the judges of our day would create law instead of just interpreting it. I can't for the life of me understand how libs can twist common sense around so much, and for what. America was doing fine till we started kicking God out of everything. The problems we did have like racism were tackled by religious individuals. Wasn't Martin Luthor a minister?
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 20 Sep 2007 18:53 |
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Captain America
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I think at this point in history, we take the good points of religion and remove the voodoo crap. Christianity did bring some very good ideas into the world. But dudes springing from the grave can stay in comic books.
Martin Luther and Martin Luther King, Jr. were both ministers, yes.
I think the Bible is OK to teach, alongside the Koran, and the Greek, Egyptian and Norse myths. Throw in some Hindu and Buddhist teachings, too. But keep it in the context of what people have believed throughout time and not just the guide to a bunk salvation.
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| Posted: 20 Sep 2007 19:01 |
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Dude I just don't know what to say. You simply don't seem to realize the fact that without God there would be no America. You simply cannot fathom how much this nation has been blessed, and it wasn't because America is superior to other nations. Our faith in God is what made America great. You take that a way, and you even take away the very reasoning the founders used to guarantee all of our freedoms.
If you think that teaching all religions is ok, I assume you mean in schools then?
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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