Posted: 06 Nov 2008 04:19 Last Edited By: Steve Rogers
Registered User Currently Offline
Posts: 474
Join Date: Aug 2008
Score one for the conservatives!
The people voted and decided NOT to let the homos marry in California. I think this decision says a lot since its the most liberal state.
From Fox:
Quote: California voters have adopted a constitutional amendment outlawing same-sex marriage, overturning the state Supreme Court decision that gave gay couples the right to wed just months ago.
The passage of Proposition 8 in Tuesday's election represents a crushing political defeat for gay rights activists, who had hoped public opinion on the contentious issue had shifted enough since the state overwhelmingly passed an earlier gay marriage ban in 2000 to help them defeat the measure.
"We pick ourselves up and trudge on," Kate Kendell, executive director of the National Center for Lesbian Rights, said early Wednesday when it appeared the measure was headed for passage. "There has been enormous movement in favor of full equality in eight short years. That is the direction this is heading, and if it's not today or it's not tomorrow, it will be soon."
With almost all precincts reporting, election returns showed the measure winning with 52 percent. With election officials and others estimating 2 million to 3 million provisional and absentee ballots remained to be tallied, leaders of the No on 8 campaign said they were not ready to concede.
"Because Prop 8 involves the sensitive matter of individual rights, we believe it is important to wait until we receive further information about the outcome," Geoff Kors, director of Equality California said in a statement Wednesday.
But based on trends and the locations of the votes still outstanding, the margin of support in favor of the initiative appeared secure. The Yes on 8 campaign declared victory just after midnight.
"People believe in the institution of marriage," Frank Schubert, co-manager of the Yes on 8 campaign said. "It's one institution that crosses ethnic divides, that crosses partisan divides. ... People have stood up because they care about marriage and they care a great deal."
Opponents of the gay marriage ban said Wednesday that one legal challenge was filed and others were being prepared.
By changing the state constitution to limit marriage to a man and a woman, Proposition 8 overturns the California Supreme Court decision that overturned the 2000 ban and legalized same-sex marriage in the state in mid-June. Since then, an estimated 18,000 gay and lesbian couples, many of them from other states, have been married.
The measure's passage represents a personal loss for couples who still hoped to wed, and casts a shadow of uncertainty on the legal unions of those who already have. Because the initiative holds that only marriage between a man and a woman is recognized in the state, legal experts have said it will have to be resolved in court whether existing gay marriages would be nullified.
Amid uncertainty over when the amendment takes effect, gay and lesbian couples continued seeking marriage licenses throughout the state Wednesday. They were successful in some jurisdictions and not others where county clerks wanted direction before sanctioning any more same-sex unions.
Jake Rowe, 27, and James Eslick, 29, were in the midst of getting married at Sacramento City Hall Wednesday morning when someone from the clerk's office stopped the wedding. The two men had planned to get married next year because "We held in hope that 8 would not pass," Rowe said.
"I'm thoroughly surprised. I thought Californians had come to the point where they realized discrimination wasn't right," he said.
Kate Folmar, a spokeswoman for Secretary of State Debra Bowen, said initiatives typically take effect the day after an election, although the results from Tuesday's races will not be certified until Dec. 13.
Couples who had optimistically made appointments to get hitched at San Francisco City Hall on Wednesday were asked to wait until the clerk's office received guidance from state officials, said county clerk Karen Hong Lee.
"I know what the Constitution says, but with the fact there are some votes still uncounted, we want to make absolutely sure as administrators we are doing our jobs properly," Hong said.
But in Los Angeles, couples still were able to wed -- for now.
Grace Chavez, a spokeswoman for the Los Angeles County registrar's office in Norwalk, said weddings for gay couples were being performed in first floor chapel. She could not, however, say if there was any last-minute rush of couples trying to marry before the measure is enforced.
Attorney General Jerry Brown has said he thinks the ban would not to couples who tied the knot between mid-June and election day. As for who manage to marry Wednesday, Dana Simas, a spokeswoman for Brown, said "that is an issue that we have not yet decided."
Despite intense disappointment, some newlyweds elected to look on the positive side, taking comfort that millions of Californians had voted to validate their relationships.
"I'm really OK," said Diana Correia, of Berkeley, who married her partner of 18 years, Cynthia Correia, on Sunday in front of the couple's two children and 80 relatives and friends. "I hope the marriage holds, but we are already married in our hearts, so nobody can take that away."
__________________
"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
Posted: 06 Nov 2008 04:37
Registered User
Posts: 4725
Join Date: Aug 2007
Make no mistake. You are applauding discrimination. The fact that someone is having their liberty infringed upon and you're okay with it is your vote to okay your own liberty being infringed upon when the group you belong to becomes undesirable to the powers that be. It is assuredly just a matter of time.
Also keep in mind that this overturning is not only 2 to 3 million votes premature according to this article, but can be overturned itself if it ever heads that way in the first place.
I'd also be very willing to wager that the wording was obscure enough on the ballot that people might not have necessarily known what they were voting for exactly. I doubt seriously it was simply worded enough. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 06 Nov 2008 08:54
Registered User Currently Offline
Posts: 257
Join Date: Mar 2008
You should be SOOO PROUD Steve.
Posted: 06 Nov 2008 20:28
Administrator Currently Offline
Posts: 4786
Join Date: Jul 2007
What's discriminatory about defining marriage. It's always been between a man and a woman. Not between a man and a man or a dog and a man or a man and a tree or a man and a cat or a man and a car or any other combination there of. Some goofy guy comes up with the idea he wants to marry another man and you rush to his aide. Sheesh, come on people. It's not like they voted to take away their property or force them into prison of some kind.
It's remarkable how nutty a person's belief system can get when you take God out of the equation. I'm sorry to be so bold, but there's where the difference lies. You liberal minded folks have slowly been losing touch with common sense and reality year by year and getting angry because we conservative aren't losing ours alongside you. I predict you liberals will continue to want more and more nutty laws passed as the years go by. You want be satisfied with same sex the next thing will be adults and children, after that animals. Sound crazy now? Well same sex marriage sounded nuts to everyone on the planet 20 years ago.
So I'm glad the people of California stepped up and said enough is enough already and passed something good for a change. God bless them.
And spockman if FU is all you can think of don't waste your brain cells. Save them for something you'll need later on like remembering to breathe. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 06 Nov 2008 20:32
Registered User Currently Offline
Posts: 474
Join Date: Aug 2008
I'm not discriminating, Pak. I'm not saying that they shouldn't have equal rights. They can marry. That is their right. But only to marry one of the opposite sex. No one should have the right to marry one of the same sex. And that way, it is equal.
I'm not going to even try to stop folks from being gay. But I will if they try to twist something that is holy, like marriage. Marriage is between a man and a woman, and nothing else. __________________
"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
Posted: 06 Nov 2008 21:07
Registered User
Posts: 4725
Join Date: Aug 2007
Quote: What's discriminatory about defining marriage.
A group/groups is/are being denied their liberty. For a religious reason.
Quote: It's remarkable how nutty a person's belief system can get when you take God out of the equation.
What's remarkable is that you won't be expecting retaliation for a statement like that Tim. I'll give you a chance to reword that, unless you're looking for the fight by shit-talking.
Quote: I'm not discriminating, Pak.
You're not in California and you didn't write the Bible. I know that's not you Steve to hold personally responsible for it. You are still supporting discrimination because it's conveniently along the same lines as the group you belong to. When another group that doesn't share exactly your same views does the same, maybe you'll finally understand.
Marriage stopped being solely a 'holy' institution when it became a secular institution. It became secular because of money and property rights, not to mention that other faiths get married and people with no faith can get married.
--------------------------------------
Guys, IF your only reason to keep marriage 'sacred' between a man and woman is based on religion, then it is unconstitutional to create a law about it either way, for or against.
'That's the way it's always been' is not a reason, or else we would still have slavery, among other unsavory things.
'It leads to people marrying animals and trees and rocks, etc' is not only F--KING STUPID but not an excuse.
Quote: No one should have the right to marry one of the same sex.
Give me a better reason than those above or a religious one. Otherwise, you guys and that proposition are dead wrong. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 06 Nov 2008 23:02
Administrator Currently Offline
Posts: 4786
Join Date: Jul 2007
Quote: For a religious reason.
Marriage was created by God so I'd say that made it pretty religious.
Quote: I'll give you a chance to reword that, unless you're looking for the fight by shit-talking.
Don't retaliate with trash talk prove me wrong. Prove there is logic outside of Biblical thinking. Liberals cry over murderers and murder babies. They tell Christians to shut up, while protest for the freedom of all others to speak. Libs want tolerance for everything except for Christians whom you label intolerant. Liberalism believes it is moral, but can't tell you where morality comes from. You can believe everything came from one magic cell from one magic explosion and from magic molecules that just happened to exist, but belief in a greater power is obscene. Tell me what's logical in all of that.
While liberalism claims to believe in free speech those that believe in anything other than evolution lose their jobs and are kicked out of their jobs not based on their performance but by simply rejecting evolution or daring to question it.
Quote: It leads to people marrying animals and trees and rocks, etc' is not only
men marrying men is as stupid as marrying an animal in some cases they are just as harry and smell just as bad. So don't give me that. That's a joke son. Smile. True but still meant for u to smile. You guys are so uptight.
Back to seriousness
Do you think the pilgrims came to America for the freedom of religion or for the freedom to have same sex marriage?
Do you think George Washington and the rest of the colonists were shedding their blood and walking barefoot in the snow during the Revolutionary war thinking, "Man I hope men can marry men after this is all over"?
Do you think all the people that died in WW2 were doing so to make freedom for same sex marriages?
I don't think so. Freedom is precious and costly. Distorting it to suit lifestyles our forefathers would never have endorsed does a great disservice to their memory and their sacrifices. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 07 Nov 2008 00:09
Registered User
Posts: 4725
Join Date: Aug 2007
Quote: Guys, IF your only reason to keep marriage 'sacred' between a man and woman is based on religion, then it is unconstitutional to create a law about it either way, for or against.
When you can answer that statement itself with an actual example, I'll respond to it.
I also wonder, on the marriage issue, why you think the government has to recognize a 'marriage' of any sort in the first place.
--------------------------------------------------
Since you just want to get into the boliever/nonbeliever battle so bad again....fine.
Quote: Don't retaliate with trash talk prove me wrong. Prove there is logic outside of Biblical thinking.
Right after you prove there's logic in the book. I can certainly point out plenty of illogical things in there and if you were the slightest bit honest about it, so could you.
Quote: Liberals cry over...
Some conservatives can't stay on topic very well, even when they purposely go off topic to begin with. We started with same sex marriage, you shifted over to non-evangelicals being nutty and now we're on a tirade about liberals. I think someone's spiked your Gatorade Tim.
Quote: You can believe everything came from one magic cell from one magic explosion and from magic molecules that just happened to exist, but belief in a greater power is obscene.
Yes, the man who just wished it here is so much more plausible than the magic you speak of, which has nothing to do with science either. You've successfully defeated something you invented. Congratz.
Quote: those that believe in anything other than evolution lose their jobs
Horseshit. Show me someone losing their job strictly because of their beliefs instead of them not doing the job they were hired for. Just one.
A heads up before you do-there are entire sites dedicated to debunking all of Ben Stein's movie.
Quote: men marrying men is as stupid as marrying an animal
Typical 'tolerance' on your part and fortunately immaterial for the rest of us.
--------------------------------------------------
Quote: Do you think the pilgrims came to America for the freedom of religion or for the freedom to have same sex marriage?
Neither. Their primary cause was to establish trade for England. There was no freedom of religion until the Constitution was written and passed, long after the pilgrims came here. The first settlers had no actual freedom of religion.
The next two questions are actually pandering and loaded and borderline ignorant. No answer to either.
I'm also ignoring the bumper sticker rhetoric and hyperbole to get to the meat of the last statement.
Quote: Freedom is precious and costly. Distorting it to suit lifestyles
You advocate freedom while saying a certain group doesn't deserve freedom based on your religious views and you call them wanting that freedom a distortion to suit a lifestyle while you yourself distort the same word/idea/ideal to suit your lifestyle.
I don't think you understand freedom or liberty at all. I really don't. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 07 Nov 2008 00:18
Administrator Currently Offline
Posts: 4786
Join Date: Jul 2007
Quote: Show me someone losing their job strictly because of their beliefs instead of them not doing the job they were hired for. Just one.
I don't buy any of the debunking of Ben Stein's movie. It's not like he made that movie to make millions of dollars. There's not a whole lot of money in documentaries.
Quote: Typical 'tolerance' on your part and fortunately immaterial for the rest of us.
Uh ok.
I'll get u later, my wife says it's time to go workout at the gym.
Wait till I get back to work tomorrow are you going to get it.
Until I have time to more adequately answer you. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 07 Nov 2008 00:26
Registered User
Posts: 4725
Join Date: Aug 2007
Quote: I don't buy any of the debunking of Ben Stein's movie.
That's a shame because the debunkers are pretty much correct. You are of course allowed to believe whatever you like though, however wrong someone proves it to be.
-----------------------------------
Quote: Until I have time to more adequately answer you.
I'll keep these on a hot plate for you then, for when you return.
1.
Quote: Guys, IF your only reason to keep marriage 'sacred' between a man and woman is based on religion, then it is unconstitutional to create a law about it either way, for or against.
2.
Quote: why you think the government has to recognize a 'marriage' of any sort in the first place.
3.
Quote: You advocate freedom while saying a certain group doesn't deserve freedom based on your religious views and you call them wanting that freedom a distortion to suit a lifestyle while you yourself distort the same word/idea/ideal to suit your lifestyle.
I don't think you understand freedom or liberty at all. I really don't.
__________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 07 Nov 2008 02:42
Registered User Currently Offline
Posts: 474
Join Date: Aug 2008
Quote: I can certainly point out plenty of illogical things in there and if you were the slightest bit honest about it, so could you.
Bull crap!
Quote: Neither. Their primary cause was to establish trade for England. There was no freedom of religion until the Constitution was written and passed, long after the pilgrims came here. The first settlers had no actual freedom of religion.
Sorry, dude. Wrong again. The pilgrims were puritans, and they came to America to practice their religion and break away from the Catholic Church.
Quote: You advocate freedom while saying a certain group doesn't deserve freedom based on your religious views and you call them wanting that freedom a distortion to suit a lifestyle while you yourself distort the same word/idea/ideal to suit your lifestyle.
We're not denying freedom. We're just not letting you destroy a principle. Homos are free to be gay, and to be married, just not to themselves. Its not because they're not "free". Its because marriage is a set principle that cannot be altered. __________________
"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
Posted: 07 Nov 2008 02:47
Registered User
Posts: 4725
Join Date: Aug 2007
Quote: Bull crap!
Quite true actually.
Quote: The pilgrims were puritans, and they came to America to practice their religion and break away from the Catholic Church.
So they chartered their own boats as missionaries is what you're saying? __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 07 Nov 2008 02:51
Registered User Currently Offline
Posts: 474
Join Date: Aug 2008
Quote: So they chartered their own boats as missionaries is what you're saying?
Something like that. I know that because I paid attention in history class.
Quote: Quite true actually.
Glad you admit it then. __________________
"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
Posted: 07 Nov 2008 02:56
Registered User
Posts: 4725
Join Date: Aug 2007
Quote: Homos are free to be gay, and to be married, just not to themselves.
It's that 'just not to themselves' part where you completely contradict yourself. It's an unnecessary limitation fostered by a prejudice created by your faith. It is a limit on their liberty that does not belong and again, for the record, because you have not acknowledged it, to infringe on someone else's freedom is to invite someone else to infringe on yours.
Again, one more time, in case you missed it, the other times I posted it, unless you're ignoring it on purpose, or afraid to admit defeat, both of you, Tim and Steve: (lengthy yes?)
Quote: Guys, IF your only reason to keep marriage 'sacred' between a man and woman is based on religion, then it is unconstitutional to create a law about it either way, for or against.
__________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 07 Nov 2008 15:59
Administrator Currently Offline
Posts: 4786
Join Date: Jul 2007
Liberty is not reliant upon the government putting it's stamp of approval on a controversial lifestyle. You cringe at the government putting a stamp of approval on God, yet you demand they approve a wicked lifestyle.
Before you say well then all marriage should not be sanctioned, let me say, that's nuts.
It's ridiculous to change a long established foundation of society that has been a part of our nation and the world since the beginning of time just to be politically correct.
This attitude of the liberal culture that if we cant' have our way then nobody should is reminiscent of spoiled children or a form of communism if you will. It's the same attitude that drives Obama to things like higher taxes for the rich not to run the government but to make things fair. To spread the wealth. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 07 Nov 2008 17:49
Registered User
Posts: 4725
Join Date: Aug 2007
Off track enough to swing back to Obama and taxes....why?
and then back to Communism too...ffs.
----------------------------------------
I'll post it again since you're still not getting this one vital point.
Quote: Guys, IF your only reason to keep marriage 'sacred' between a man and woman is based on religion, then it is unconstitutional to create a law about it either way, for or against.
Quote: Liberty is not reliant....
Liberty....TRUE liberty is dependany on our government NOT placing a 'stamp of approval' on anything outside the military or court systems leaving it's citizens freedom in their personal lives.
Quote: Before you say well then all marriage should not be sanctioned, let me say, that's nuts.
Then YOU are the one who needs the 'stamp of approval'.
Quote: It's ridiculous to change a long established foundation of society
The definition of marriage having to be defined as between a man and woman would actually be the change(the new thing introduced) by busybody, prejudiced religious people. Prop 8 in California was sponsored by the Mormons, for instance. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 07 Nov 2008 17:52
Registered User
Posts: 4725
Join Date: Aug 2007
I didn't forget you Steve.
I said:
Quote: I can certainly point out plenty of illogical things in there and if you were the slightest bit honest about it, so could you.
You said:
Quote: Bull crap!
I said:
Quote: Quite true actually.
You said:
Quote: Glad you admit it then.
----------What?------------- __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 07 Nov 2008 18:00
Administrator Currently Offline
Posts: 4786
Join Date: Jul 2007
Quote: Off track enough to swing back to Obama and taxes....why?
and then back to Communism too
It connects. It's part of the same kind of mentality.
Quote: Guys, IF your only reason to keep marriage 'sacred' between a man and woman is based on religion, then it is unconstitutional to create a law about it either way, for or against.
If that were true then wouldn't this be unconstitutional as well
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights. . ."
Thomas Jefferson helped come up with that one. Seems to me that our rights come from God so we've established our freedom on the notion that our freedom comes from a higher source than man or government. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 07 Nov 2008 18:17
Registered User
Posts: 4725
Join Date: Aug 2007
Quote: It connects. It's part of the same kind of mentality.
It doesn't really connect except that you were grasping for it....desperately....and unfortunately often here.
Quote: If that were true then wouldn't this be unconstitutional as well
"We hold these truths . . ."
What??
Quote: Seems to me that our rights come from God
Seems to me if that were good enough, nobody would have needed freedom of religion in the first place. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 07 Nov 2008 19:13
Administrator Currently Offline
Posts: 4786
Join Date: Jul 2007
What??
What what? Now you are questioning Thomas Jefferson? Hmm don't know what to think about you sometimes. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 07 Nov 2008 20:35
Registered User
Posts: 4725
Join Date: Aug 2007
I'm questioning your meaning(possibly your sanity) in saying that quote is unconstitutional.
--------------------------------------------------
Do you have another reason that marriage has to be defined as between a man and woman specifically besides a religious one, yes or no? __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 07 Nov 2008 20:56
Administrator Currently Offline
Posts: 4786
Join Date: Jul 2007
yes it would be crazy to question Jefferson about God's gift of freedom and it would be also crazy to conclude
Quote: Guys, IF your only reason to keep marriage 'sacred' between a man and woman is based on religion, then it is unconstitutional to create a law about it either way, for or against.
__________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 07 Nov 2008 22:27
Registered User
Posts: 4725
Join Date: Aug 2007
And you still have no other reason besides your religious one correct? __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 08 Nov 2008 00:45
Registered User Currently Offline
Posts: 474
Join Date: Aug 2008
Quote: ----------What?-------------
I meant I'm glad you agree that what you said is bull crap. __________________
"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
Posted: 08 Nov 2008 13:40
Registered User
Posts: 4725
Join Date: Aug 2007
You know that's not what I said, so if anyone's tossing crap around, it's you.
Did you guys want to have any serious conversation anymore or no? The antics are tedious. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 08 Nov 2008 18:22
Administrator Currently Offline
Posts: 4786
Join Date: Jul 2007
Quote: And you still have no other reason besides your religious one correct?
Pak, my point is that the entire constitution is based upon religious ideas and principles. The founders were very religious. They based our very freedom on the idea that it came from God and not man.
Were our freedoms something that was a gift from the government, then it could be taken away. There could be a justification for it, but if God is the one that grants us our freedom then no government can be justified in taking it away.
So you therefore cannot claim that basing our judgment on religious principles is unconstitutional without calling the constitution itself unconstitutional. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 08 Nov 2008 20:41 Last Edited By: Steve Rogers
Registered User Currently Offline
Posts: 474
Join Date: Aug 2008
Quote: You know that's not what I said, so if anyone's tossing crap around, it's you.
When you said "its quite true actually" to my "bull crap" statement about your argument, I reflected your sarcasm or whatever it was right back at you by using your own quote to show that you admitted your argument was bull crap. There, do you understand now?
Tell me why freedom should also include changing and twisting definitions--like marriage. __________________
"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
Posted: 08 Nov 2008 21:08
Registered User
Posts: 4725
Join Date: Aug 2007
Quote: There, do you understand now?
Yep. You had no argument to begin with so you resorted to this and you're still trying to continue it.
Either state why what I said was 'bull crap' or we're done here. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 09 Nov 2008 02:31
Registered User Currently Offline
Posts: 474
Join Date: Aug 2008
Quote: Either state why what I said was 'bull crap' or we're done here.
Actually, the ball is still in your court. You said that you can point out plenty of illogical things in the Bible, but you have yet to do so.
Why won't you answer my previous statement?
Quote: Tell me why freedom should also include changing and twisting definitions--like marriage.
__________________
"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
Posted: 09 Nov 2008 13:29
Registered User
Posts: 4725
Join Date: Aug 2007
Semantics...tedious. You still never explained what was bull crap about what I said, but I'll be nice.
---------------------------------------------
I answered your statement about twisting a definition already-you guys are the ones doing the twisting by demanding the new definition.
---------------------------------------------
Illogical things in the Bible? Let's do a simple one.
Are you sure you're going to Heaven?
__________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Wait till I get back to work tomorrow are you going to get it.
