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| Posted: 11 Nov 2008 22:29 |
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but i don't see why that matters because they do not involve public funding.
It matters because of the building and how it was paid for and what the building is for. It matters because as a government building, it cannot show preference to a Christian artifact. It matters because the ten commandments do not represent US law, but instead Mosaic law. They do not represent all of us or fairness or justice or due process of law by any stretch of the imagination.
Just as a side note, you don't even actually have a good enough reason to have them there either.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 11 Nov 2008 23:09 |
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One basic thing you keep forgetting is that we have freedom of religion not freedom from religion. A very small difference in wording, but it makes all the difference in the world in practice.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 11 Nov 2008 23:32 |
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Just as a side note, you don't even actually have a good enough reason to have them there either.
They serve as a symbol of ancient law and justice.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 11 Nov 2008 23:33 |
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One basic thing you keep forgetting is that we have freedom of religion not freedom from religion.
We don't have freedom from religion? Are you kidding me?
That's EXACTLY what the first amendment is for.
Freedom FROM having to be subservant to someone else's religion.
I didn't forget anything-you made that horseshit up.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 12 Nov 2008 02:29 |
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The founders were more concerned about freedom to worship than worry about freedom from worship. If you study history in detail you can't come to any other conclusion. This has never been a communist country you know. If you like that kind of thing then check out how Russia has worked all these years.
An atheistic form of government isn't exactly the best kind of government you know. Unless you think waiting in line for toilet paper is a good thing.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 12 Nov 2008 13:19 |
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The founders were more concerned about freedom to worship than worry about freedom from worship.
Almost. They wanted to be free to worship as they chose, whether Christian, Deist or nonbeliever. They wanted to be free from any government control over that aspect of their lives. Freedom from and freedom of can't exist without each other here Tim.
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An atheistic form of government
No such animal exists, or has ever existed, or will ever exist.
And please, stop talking about the communists in any sort of context toward or as any sort of relation to religion or lack thereof. You should know better by now.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 12 Nov 2008 17:33 |
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They wanted to be free from any government control over that aspect of their lives. Your definition of government control is greatly strained. I define control has requiring an action on my part. You define it as letting others partake in action around yourself.
Your belief - Example someone prays around you at a football game = government control. Someone else posts the 10 commandments. Oh no you see it= government control.
My idea of control = Someone by force of law requires I bow my head and pray, join a church, memorize the 10 commandments etc.
Some kind of action on my part.
Big differences
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 13 Nov 2008 00:43 |
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Your post is lost on me-I had to keep rereading it to make heads or tails of it.
Just for the record-attempting to prevent an action by laws or statutes or mandates or fine or threat of imprisonment is government control which prevents your taking an action at all, especially when others are allowed to take that action.
Someone praying in my general vicinity or me seeing the ten commandments in my travels doesn't bother me at all and I don't see the connection to government in either. Please don't confuse this with our other discussions-this is strictly for your post here.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 13 Nov 2008 00:58 |
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Point is putting the 10 commandments on a school wall is not forcing a student to become a baptist, or Christian of any kind. They don't even have to acknowledge it's there. Yet judges rule that such things are against the make believe separation rules.
Now if some school made students join the local church or get expelled, then that would be an example of force. That would be un-American.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 13 Nov 2008 01:13 |
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Yet judges rule that such things are against the make believe separation rules.
It's not make believe-seperation is a rule. It's actually for your benefit as well as mine.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 13 Nov 2008 11:43 |
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I just found an amazing quote by George Carlin, which I had somehow forgotten or not heard of before. Shameful of me.
"The real reason that we can't have the Ten Commandments in a courthouse?
You cannot post 'Thou shalt not steal', 'Thou shalt not commit adultery' and 'Thou shalt not lie' in a building full of lawyers, judges and politicians; It creates a hostile work environment"
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 13 Nov 2008 19:47 |
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Hmm. ok funny but surely we shouldn't do things to make lawyers happy.
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It's not make believe-seperation is a rule It ain't in the constitution. I don't care if you read it 50 times forwards and backwards the words "separation of church and state" are not there.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 13 Nov 2008 21:51 |
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ffs....
Nowhere in the constitution does it mention assault weapons either. It doesn't mention marriage. It doesn't mention condos or timeshares. It doesn't mention eminent domain even.
Do we ignore them all or do we use our heads and find the connections ourselves and correct applications thereof?
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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
There's the whole amendment. It clearly says 'no law respecting an establishment of religion'. That means for or against. The Supreme Court has already set precedent on this. We now have the 'Lemon Test' to determine what side of that 'wall' any issue falls on.
Separation is quite real.
Further, you have argued in the past that the individual mindsets of historical figures matter(at least when it convenienced you). We do have the letter to the Danbury Baptists. We do have the Treaty of Tripoli. We do have an abundance of quotes attested to Madison, Jefferson, Franklin and even Washington on this subject. Why no mention of understanding mindsets here Tim?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 14 Nov 2008 02:47 |
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It also says or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. That's the part you like to forget.
letter to the Danbury Baptists. - Right which was written from Thomas Jefferson to a minister if I remember correctly letting him know the government would not interfere with the church. No where to my knowledge did it say anything about removing the 10 commandments from school buildings or courtrooms. Now you might have a case if the letter was written to calm the nerves of an worried atheist.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 14 Nov 2008 02:51 |
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Your right to free exercise is guaranteed until it infringes upon someone else, then it stops being free.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 14 Nov 2008 17:04 |
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I don't have the right to free exercise at my gym it costs me a monthly membership fee.
Joke kidding.
See here we go your definition of infringing on someone else's rights includes things like feeling embarrassed or feeling uncomfortable that some else is praying or doing something you don't agree with.
If someone prays at school and a student feels uncomfortable, thats tough. In my opinion there is no constitutional right to never hear or see religion being expressed in public. There is only freedom to express not to suppress religion.
And it's not that I don't sympathize with a non-religious person, but it's unreasonable to try and impose your will on others by force of law either way for or against religion.
And my definition of forcing religion is not by one person's or a group's expression but by physically forcing a person to do a religious act against their will.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 14 Nov 2008 22:30 |
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feeling embarrassed or feeling uncomfortable that some else is praying or doing something you don't agree with.
I don't and I've never said anything near this to give you that idea.
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In my opinion there is no constitutional right to never hear or see religion being expressed in public.
I agree.
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There is only freedom to express not to suppress religion.
This is incorrect. (oddly worded too)
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but it's unreasonable to try and impose your will on others by force of law either way for or against religion.
Absolutely correct. 100% Dead on. Welcome to the party.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 15 Nov 2008 00:41 |
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But as I've tried to make clear a football game prayer, or 10 commandments on a wall is not forcing someone to practice religion.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 15 Nov 2008 14:13 |
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You've mentioned the football game prayer before and I still have no idea what this refers to or what occurred that it was a problem.
10 commandments on any old wall isn't a problem-on a government building wall or a wall paid for by taxes it is a problem. It has nothing to do with force.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 18 Nov 2008 18:05 |
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Ok I'll post a topic on this.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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