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| Posted: 07 Nov 2008 15:48 |
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source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilgrims
Pilgrims, or Pilgrim Fathers (or Pilgrim Mothers), is a name commonly applied to the early settlers of the Plymouth Colony in present-day Plymouth, Massachusetts. Their leadership came from a religious congregation who had fled a volatile political environment in the East Midlands of England for the relative calm of the Netherlands to preserve their religion.
Concerned with losing their cultural identity, the group later arranged with English investors to establish a new colony in North America. The colonists faced a lengthy series of challenges, from bureaucracy, impatient investors and internal conflicts to sabotage, storms, disease, and uncertain relations with the indigenous people. The colony, established in 1620, became the second successful English settlement in what was to become the United States of America, the first being Jamestown, Virginia, which was founded in 1607. Their story has become a central theme of the history and culture of the United States.
Separatists held that their differences with the Church of England were irreconcilable and that their worship should be organized independently of the trappings, traditions and organization of a central state church.[1] Unlike the Puritans the Pilgrims left England seeking a complete physical separation. William Brewster, a former diplomatic assistant to the Netherlands, was living in the Scrooby manor house, serving as postmaster for the village and bailiff to the Archbishop of York. Having been favorably impressed by Clyfton's services, he had begun participating in Separatist services led by John Smyth in Gainsborough, Lincolnshire.[2] The Separatists had long been controversial. Under the 1559 Act of Uniformity, it was illegal not to attend official Church of England services, with a fine of 12d (£.05; 2005 equivalent: about £5)[3] for each missed Sunday and holy day. The penalties for conducting unofficial services included imprisonment and larger fines. Under the policy of this time, Barrowe and Greenwood were executed for sedition in 1593.
Text of the Mayflower Compact
To address this issue, a brief contract, later to be known as the Mayflower Compact, was drafted promising cooperation among the settlers "for the general good of the Colony unto which we promise all due submission and obedience." It was ratified by majority rule, with 41 adult male passengers signing.[29] At this time, John Carver was chosen as the colony's first governor.
The original document was lost, but the transcriptions in Mourt's Relation and William Bradford's journal Of Plymouth Plantation are in agreement and accepted as accurate. Bradford's hand written manuscript is kept in a special vault at the State Library of Massachusetts.[4] Bradford's transcription is as follows:
In the name of God, Amen. We whose names are underwritten, the loyal subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord King James, by the Grace of God of Great Britain, France and Ireland, King, Defender of the Faith, etc.
Having undertaken, for the Glory of God and advancement of the Christian Faith and Honour of our King and Country, a Voyage to plant the First Colony in the Northern Parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually in the presence of God and one of another, Covenant and Combine ourselves together into a Civil Body Politic, for our better ordering and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid; and by virtue hereof to enact, constitute and frame such just and equal Laws, Ordinances, Acts, Constitutions and Offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the general good of the Colony, unto which we promise all due submission and obedience. In witness whereof we have hereunder subscribed our names at Cape Cod, the 11th of November, in the year of the reign of our Sovereign Lord King James, of England, France and Ireland the eighteenth, and of Scotland the fifty-fourth. Anno Domini 1620.
The 'dread sovereign' referred to in the document used the archaic definition of dread; meaning awe and reverence (for the King), not fear.
The first use of the word pilgrims for the Mayflower passengers appeared in Bradford’s Of Plymouth Plantation. As he finished recounting his group's July 1620 departure from Leiden, Bradford used the imagery of Hebrews 11:13–16, about Old Testament "strangers and pilgrims" who had opportunity to return to their old country but instead longed for a better, heavenly country. Bradford wrote:
So they lefte [that] goodly & pleasante citie, which had been ther resting place, nere 12 years; but they knew they were pilgrimes, & looked not much on these things; but lift up their eyes to ye heavens, their dearest cuntrie, and quieted their spirits
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 07 Nov 2008 17:28 |
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Great.
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Concerned with losing their cultural identity, the group later arranged with English investors to establish a new colony in North America.
What do you think the investors were investing in?
From:
http://ffrf.org/nontracts/xian.php
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What about the Pilgrims and Puritans?
The first colony of English-speaking Europeans was Jamestown, settled in 1609 for trade, not religious freedom. Fewer than half of the 102 Mayflower passengers in 1620 were "Pilgrims" seeking religious freedom. The secular United States of America was formed more than a century and a half later. If tradition requires us to return to the views of a few early settlers, why not adopt the polytheistic and natural beliefs of the Native Americans, the true founders of the continent at least 12,000 years earlier?
Most of the religious colonial governments excluded and persecuted those of the "wrong" faith. The framers of our Constitution in 1787 wanted no part of religious intolerance and bloodshed, wisely establishing the first government in history to separate church and state
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 07 Nov 2008 17:39 |
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A bunch of liberals wrote that garbage, obviously.
And the Americans here are the descendants of those Europeans that came here with the intention of preserving their religion, so adopting another culture's customs wouldn't make sense.
Your argument is bogus.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 07 Nov 2008 17:43 |
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Atheistic view of history. The pilgrims left England because of religious freedom pure and simple. That's why they settled down in America.
They wanted freedom to worship God as they saw fit. They didn't want to live in a place where you went to the state's church or went to prison.
They also wanted to maintain their own identity for their children. They didn't want their children to be brought up in a way of life they disagreed with.
It's a far cry from the ACLU's attempt to wipe the very name of God from schools these days. The ACLU would claim that saying the name of God or posting the 10 commandments was the same as forcing people to kneel and pray to a state God. Where clearly expression of religion is not the same as enforcing religion. To comment on the 10 commandments or post them for instance is not the same as putting people in jail for not memorizing them.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 07 Nov 2008 18:12 |
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Yes, wikipedia is the bastion of all true knowledge while anything you don't agree with can just be disregarded and ignored.....that's a shame really.
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Your argument is bogus.
How's that Steve? What exactly is bogus?
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Atheistic view of history.
I don't even know what that is, to properly respond to it. History is history and while different people writing it may give different versions of the same facts- facts is facts. I pointed out in the article you posted how they made a deal with investors, now you can answer the question:
What were the investors investing in?
(The answer's trade, just like in the article I quoted from. Without the investment in trade, no boat ride-simple simple logic.)
Please let me know when the answer comes to you.
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I have two very simple solutions for you NEEDING the ten commandments posted in a school.
1)Religious school of your choice, for the child you are responsible for.
2)No government run schools that anyone else pays for that child to go to.
You're also still confusing the first amendment wrongly as a one way street. It's actually no law, for or against, the establishment of religion. You can keep trying to ignore that, but ignoring it or simply ignorance of the law is no excuse(try it in court sometime).
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 07 Nov 2008 19:16 |
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I tell you what let's push school vouchers and then the atheists can send their kids to atheism school, and the Christians can send their kids to Christian schools. How about that? Then everybody should be happy, and we'll see in the end which kids grow up the most competitive in the job market.
How much you want to bet they do better than public school kids?
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 07 Nov 2008 20:31 |
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Pick one.
Quote:
1)Religious school of your choice, for the child you are responsible for.
2)No government run schools that anyone else pays for that child to go to.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 07 Nov 2008 20:57 |
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No government run schools that anyone else pays for that child to go to.
I see so you'd rather poor kids can't go to school if it means they might hear about God.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 07 Nov 2008 22:26 |
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If we're talking about a government sponsored school paid for by taxes, we keep religion seperate from it unless EVERY religion is included in the program. Other parents and homeowners no less who might be Jewish or Muslim or atheist are not paying taxes to have any children hear about your God, which is your job or your church's. If we're talking about your need for the child you're responsible for hearing about God and seeing the ten commandments every time they walk through the front doors of the school they attend, pick the private/religious school of your choice. If we're talking about actually having less government in our lives, vouchers and government controlled schools are not the answer.
I'm wondering why you're normally all about conservative values and anti-handout but now pushing for a social program(you tried for the guilt angle right?). I'll address this oddity anyways. Consider the age we live in. We have cable TV and the internet at our disposal which can aid parents in homeschooling. We have the 100$ laptop program which I believe I posted in the TedTalks thread and an incoming President who has promised cheap broadband access for all-there may very shortly not be the need for a physical building to send kids to every day. If that's the case, you can hang up anything you like at all at 'school'.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 08 Nov 2008 02:37 Last Edited By: Steve Rogers |
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How's that Steve? What exactly is bogus?
My friend that was with me then, an economics/history major, who read your argument, wanted me to tell you that you're an idiot. See even the experts agree that its bogus. But getting to the point:
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If tradition requires us to return to the views of a few early settlers, why not adopt the polytheistic and natural beliefs of the Native Americans, the true founders of the continent at least 12,000 years earlier?
We don't want to return to views of the original settlers of America, but the views of the settlers of the United States. (And don't even bother throwing slavery in there, which I predict you're going to. I already got that covered: It wasn't the intention of the framers to keep slavery. It was hardly even mentioned in the Constitution, but they didn't stop it because they figured it couldn't be abolished that quickly; they knew it would take a fight and it would be a long drawn-out process.)
From http://www.shipsonstamps.org/Topics/html/pilgrim.htm:
Quote: In 1620 a group of religiously separatists chartered a ship called 'Mayflower'. Around that time, there were supposedly four different ships with this same name, so we do not know exactly which one it was that sailed to America.
It is said that the 'Mayflower' fought against the Spanish Armada in 1588. From this we may assume that she had similar measurements and appearance of a galleon. A three-masted ship with a high platform aft, of approx. 180 tons, length of 90', beam 24', depth 13', armed with 10 cannons (in 158  , crew of 40. It is not known whether there were three square sails set on foremast and main mast (as shown on the Mali stamp) or just two. The 'Mayflower' was employed bringing wine from the Mediterranean to England and outward bound she carried furs and bales of cloth to France.
The Pilgrim Fathers were a small group of English Puritans who had separated from the Anglican Church. After fleeing to the Netherlands, in 1607/08, seeking refuge from persecution in England, they decided to pursue greater religious freedom in Colonial America.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 08 Nov 2008 13:37 |
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Tell ya what. If that friend of yours is not imaginary, have them post what's wrong with what I quoted themself.
By the way, your quote there on the botto? Watch this:
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The 'Mayflower' was employed bringing wine from the Mediterranean to England and outward bound she carried furs and bales of cloth to France.
TRADE. You see that TRADE is the purpose of this ship, yes?
Colonies were settled to expand lands for England for TRADE purposes and ownership. Not for the royalty to let their people wander off and do their own thing.
This missionary journey where England says 'go ahead and seperate from the official church and settle new English colonies however you like' is a MYTH. Whatever those pilgrims might have wanted personally was not why they were allowed to come here.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 08 Nov 2008 18:26 |
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Pak, for the life of me I'll never understand how the 10 commandments on a wall takes away your freedom no more than any other document on a wall. If it's there you can read it or not. Where's the destruction of freedom?
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 08 Nov 2008 20:36 |
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Tell ya what. If that friend of yours is not imaginary, have them post what's wrong with what I quoted themself.
Sorry, Pak, but only little kids that haven't graduated from elementary school yet have imaginary friends.
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TRADE. You see that TRADE is the purpose of this ship, yes?
Does it matter what the original purpose of the ship was? I thought we were talking about the purpose of the pilgrims. Man if you can't stay on the same page maybe you ought to give it up.
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This missionary journey where England says 'go ahead and seperate from the official church and settle new English colonies however you like' is a MYTH. Whatever those pilgrims might have wanted personally was not why they were allowed to come here.
Yes and you know all this because you were around back then right?
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 08 Nov 2008 21:16 |
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Tim, they don't belong on walls or property paid for by public funds. I understand how you might not see the harm but they don't belong.
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only little kids that haven't graduated from elementary school yet have imaginary friends.
It's usually kids who pass on insults from 'friends', or pissy little divas.
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Does it matter what the original purpose of the ship was? I thought we were talking about the purpose of the pilgrims.
Yes it matters. The original purpose was the continued purpose- trade. The purpose of the pilgrims was trade. The purpose of the colonies was trade and land ownership.
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you know all this because you were around back then right?
As opposed to you and your 'friend' who were?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 08 Nov 2008 21:58 Last Edited By: Tim |
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I understand how you might not see the harm but they don't belong. If there is no harm then where is the liberty being taken away here? It goes back to common sense values. No one is harmed by putting 10 commandments on a wall no more than posting 10 wishes or 10 things to do to perform better in school, or 10 things to have better hygiene, or etc.
It's obvious there is a lot of hate from a lot of people toward Christianity that drives all of this.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 09 Nov 2008 00:39 |
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It's usually kids who pass on insults from 'friends', or pissy little divas.
My intention was not to insult you, but to let you know how idiotic your argument is by telling you what the experts think.
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Yes it matters. The original purpose was the continued purpose- trade. The purpose of the pilgrims was trade. The purpose of the colonies was trade and land ownership.
The ship was originally intended for trade. The pilgrims used the ship for a different purpose.
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As opposed to you and your 'friend' who were?
Just like a liberal. You got to throw it back on me right? But this time it ain't workin'. What I say happened is the accepted viewpoint. But when you go against the accepted viewpoint, you better have plenty of evidence to back that up.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 09 Nov 2008 13:38 |
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They don't belong Tim.
You're wrong on several counts Steve.
I'm done here-for any further questions re-read what was already posted.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 09 Nov 2008 18:44 |
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You're wrong on several counts Steve.
Sure whatever.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 09 Nov 2008 22:52 |
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They don't belong Tim. That's your argument. I could say flowers at school don't belong. Do we need a court order and a lawsuit to remove them?
If that happened I would obviously assume there were a lot of flower haters in the world. So therefore I must assume there are also a lot of Christian haters.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 10 Nov 2008 00:59 |
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Its no use, Tim. You know how libs are. You can't tell them anything.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 10 Nov 2008 13:11 |
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They don't belong. Simple and to the point.
When you own the wall and it doesn't impede on anyone else's liberties put up anything and everything you like on that wall. Until then, they don't belong.
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You can't tell them anything.
You have a lot of holes in your windows yes? (people in glass houses and all that...)
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 10 Nov 2008 18:47 Last Edited By: Tim |
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So I guess then there should be absolutely nothing on any school walls at all for fear it might offend somebody. That includes cartoon characters, images of any kind really, words in general, everything. I'd hate to see the boring world we'd live in if you got your way.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 10 Nov 2008 21:53 |
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They don't belong because they involve public funds and religion. The rest is immaterial.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 10 Nov 2008 23:41 |
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Quote:
They don't belong because they involve public funds and religion. That's a poor argument. It's not likely the 10 commandments every created a budget deficit of any sort. Religions ideas are not dangerous or pornographic material that needs to be hid from the eyes of children as you seem to think. In fact it's nothing more than additional educational material from where I stand.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 11 Nov 2008 03:12 |
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They don't belong because they involve public funds and religion.
Public funds? What? Lets look at the Alabama judge for example. The Ten Commandments had been in the courthouse for years, and there was no good reason to take them out. In fact that's the perfect place for a courthouse. There they try and convict the breakers of those laws, like "thou shalt not kill".
Public funding had nothing to do with it.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 11 Nov 2008 12:49 |
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That's a poor argument.
Not for someone who understands the need to keep church and state seperate.
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Public funds?
Tax money. Like what paid that judge's salary, paid for that courthouse to be built and paid for the use of the land that the courthouse was on.
The ten commandments are a strictly Christian article and do not belong in a government building. End.
Full stop.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 11 Nov 2008 16:24 |
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Not for someone who understands the need to keep church and state seperate. There is no need. Not if you are going by what the founders had in mind. I keep saying this, but they just didn't want to force people into one denomination over the other. I'd just about every found saw America as Christian nation. They just wanted a atmosphere that didn't allowed for religious freedom and religious choice.
Pak you and your ACLU buddies have an extreme view that seeks to eliminate God from all public areas, and this is not what the founders had in mind. By going to far your way you've succeeded in trampling on more rights than you've protected. There must be a common sense rationale on religious freedom. A prayer at a football game for instance does not infringe on anybody's rights. I have yet to see somebody die that was in ear shot of a prayer that didn't want to be.
If an authority figure demanded that a kid bow their head or face the consequences then you might have something to stand on. Although to be honest in my view it wouldn't hurt kids to all pray first thing in the morning at school.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 11 Nov 2008 17:23 |
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Tax money. Like what paid that judge's salary, paid for that courthouse to be built and paid for the use of the land that the courthouse was on.
Tax money pays for courthouse. The judge. The use of the land. To keep the Ten Commandments in the courthouse? No.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 11 Nov 2008 22:00 |
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Not if you are going by what the founders had in mind.
You can't keep trying to go around the Constitution to tell me what the founders were thinking in your imagination and have that be some sort of argument to back up something that goes against that document.
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eliminate God from all public areas
Can you explain to me how a courthouse is a 'public place' and not a government building? I know we've gone over this at least half a dozen times.
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I have yet to see somebody die that was in ear shot of a prayer that didn't want to be.
Let's tack up pages of the Quran in your living room and see if your tune doesn't change. Surely nothing in that holy book would harm you just by being around you would it? This idea that it isn't harmful so it should be allowed is a non sequitir and gives no valid reason to post them.
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it wouldn't hurt kids to all pray first thing in the morning at school.
Nothing stopping em. Nothing at all.
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Steve, what?
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Tax money pays for courthouse. The judge. The use of the land. To keep the Ten Commandments in the courthouse? No.
Did you have a point in there somewhere?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 11 Nov 2008 22:19 Last Edited By: Steve Rogers |
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Of course I had a point. You used public funds as a reason to justify keeping the Ten Commandments out of public places, but i don't see why that matters because they do not involve public funding. As I pointed out in my last statement, tax money doesn't pay to keep the Ten Commandments out of the courthouse. So why should public funding be a reason to keep the Commandments out? It doesn't cost to keep them there.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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